Dear anyone,
Your duolingo forum registration isn't automaticaly transferred to duome forum so in order to join duome forums you need to register with your existing or any other username and email; in any case it's advised that you choose a new password for the forum.
~ Duome Team

Informal Negative Commands

Moderators: Stasia, xillegas

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

Just curious as to why when making an informal negative command (Verb yo form present tense - o ending + opposite vowel ending + s) you turn the infinitive of the verb into the yo form present tense when you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’.

Why bother turning the verb into the yo form present tense if you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’?

I am wondering why is the step of Turing the verb in the yo form present tense even necessary?

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm

Just curious as to why when making an informal negative command (Verb yo form present tense - o ending + opposite vowel ending + s) you turn the infinitive of the verb into the yo form present tense when you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’.

Why bother turning the verb into the yo form present tense if you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’?

I am wondering why is the step of Turing the verb in the yo form present tense even necessary?

I didn't quite understand your question. Could you provide one or two examples?

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

gmads wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:47 pm
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm

Just curious as to why when making an informal negative command (Verb yo form present tense - o ending + opposite vowel ending + s) you turn the infinitive of the verb into the yo form present tense when you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’.

Why bother turning the verb into the yo form present tense if you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’?

I am wondering why is the step of Turing the verb in the yo form present tense even necessary?

I didn't quite understand your question. Could you provide one or two examples?

For example:

The verb “Cruzar” you would turn it to Cruzo -> you take the “o” off -> then add “as” at the end = Cruzas.

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:25 pm
gmads wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:47 pm
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm

Just curious as to why when making an informal negative command (Verb yo form present tense - o ending + opposite vowel ending + s) you turn the infinitive of the verb into the yo form present tense when you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’.

Why bother turning the verb into the yo form present tense if you are just going to get rid of the ‘o’?

I am wondering why is the step of Turing the verb in the yo form present tense even necessary?

I didn't quite understand your question. Could you provide one or two examples?

For example:

The verb “Cruzar” you would turn it to Cruzo -> y
ou take the “o” off -> then add “as” at the end = Cruzas.

Oh, okay.

In Spanish, verbs in the infinitive (i.e. not conjugated) are composed of two parts: a root and an ending, where the ending can be one of the following, { -ar, -er, -ir }. In the following examples, the root is colored blue while the ending is in red:

  • cantar
  • comer
  • subir

To make easy the process of learning the conjugations of all the possible tenses of regular verbs, students are usually given tables with the endings used for each person and each tense. To create a conjugated verb one discards the infinitive ending and attaches the conjugated ending.

The following table shows all the endings used to conjugate regular verbs in the present indicative.

 -ar-er-ir
yo-o-o-o
-as-es-es
ella/él-a-e-e
nosotros-amos-emos-imos
ustedes/vosotros-an/-áis-en/-éis-en/-ís
ellas/ellos-an-en-en

So, to conjugate in the present indicative any regular "-ar" verb, one then simply takes out the -ar ending and adds the corresponding ending for each person:

 cantarbailarhablar
yocantobailohablo
cantasbailashablas
ella/élcantabailahabla
nosotroscantamosbailamoshablamos
ustedes/vosotroscantan/cantáisbailan/bailáishablan/habláis
ellas/elloscantanbailanhablan

The same for the regular -er and -ir verbs. For example:

  • comer → yo como → tú comes → ella/él come etc
  • beber → yo bebo → tú bebes → ella/él bebe etc
  • subir → yo subo → tú subes → ella/él sube etc
  • batir → yo bato → tú bates → ella/él bate etc
Last edited by gmads on Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Conjugations of "model" verbs:

  • amar
    Note the list of "-ar" verbs on the left column of the page:
    { cazar, llegar, sacar, acertar, contar, degollar },
    { aullar, actuar, aislar, menguar, vaciar },
    { adecuar, cambiar },
    { avergonzar, enraizar, forzar, jugar, negar, rogar, tropezar, volcar },
    { andar, dar, desosar, errar, estar }.
  • temer
    Note the list of "-er" verbs on the left column of the page:
    { leer,agradecer, coger, mecer, tañer, entender, mover, oler },
    { escocer, soler, traer },
    { caber, caer, haber, hacer, placer, poder, poner, prever, querer, raer, rehacer, reponer, retener, roer, saber, ser, tener, valer, ver, yacer }.
  • partir
    Note the list of "-ir" verbs on the left column of the page:
    { argüir, asir, conducir, delinquir, distinguir, fruncir, huir, lucir, mullir, reír, rugir, adquirir, discernir, pedir, sentir, pudrir },
    { cohibir, reunir },
    { dormir, rehuir, reñir, seguir }.

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

gmads wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:50 pm
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:25 pm
gmads wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:47 pm

I didn't quite understand your question. Could you provide one or two examples?

For example:

The verb “Cruzar” you would turn it to Cruzo -> y
ou take the “o” off -> then add “as” at the end = Cruzas.

Oh, okay.

In Spanish, verbs in the infinitive (i.e. not conjugated) are composed of two parts: a root and an ending, where the ending can be one of the following, { -ar, -er, -ir }. In the following examples, the root is colored blue while the ending is in red:

  • cantar
  • comer
  • subir

To make the process of learning the conjugations of all the possible tenses of regular verbs, students are usually given tables with the endings used for each person and each tense. To create a conjugated verb one discards the infinitive ending and attaches the conjugated ending.

The following table shows all the endings used to conjugate regular verbs in the present indicative.

 -ar-er-ir
yo-o-o-o
-as-es-es
ella/él-a-e-e
nosotros-amos-emos-imos
ustedes/vosotros-an/-áis-en/-éis-en/-ís
ellas/ellos-an-en-en

So, to conjugate in the present indicative any regular "-ar" verb, one then simply takes out the -ar ending and adds the corresponding ending for each person:

 cantarbailarhablar
yocantobailohablo
cantasbailashablas
ella/élcantabailahabla
nosotroscantamosbailamoshablamos
ustedes/vosotroscantan/cantáisbailan/bailáishablan/habláis
ellas/elloscantanbailanhablan

The same for the regular -er and -ir verbs. For example:

  • comer → yo como → tú comes → ella/él come etc
  • beber → yo bebo → tú bebes → ella/él bebe etc
  • subir → yo subo → tú subes → ella/él sube etc
  • batir → yo bato → tú bates → ella/él bate etc

I can conjugate verbs into the present, Preterit, and Imperfect and turn regular and irregular verbs into affirmative and negative commands.

I am curious as to why when turning a verb into a command why do you turn the verb into the yo form present tense just to end up taking away the ‘o’.? Because, turning (most verbs) into any form the stem doesn’t change.

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

To put my question in short:

Is the step to turning the verb into the yo form present tense then drop the “o” just a memorization tool or is it a significant step?

Would it be any different if I took the verb “Beber” and turn it into the tú form present tense and just take of the “es”?:
Beber -> Bebes - the “es” ending + “as” = “No bebas el agua”

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 am

To put my question in short:

Is the step to turning the verb into the yo form present tense then drop the “o” just a memorization tool or is it a significant step?

Would it be any different if I took the verb “Beber” and turn it into the tú form present tense and just take of the “es”?:
Beber -> Bebes - the “es” ending + “as” = “No bebas el agua”

I don't see any benefit or purpose behind that method, because that step is completely unneeded: I would never teach anyone to do it that way.

As I described, the conjugation steps are: remove the infinitive ending and add the required (mood, tense, person) ending. With irregular verbs other changes may be needed.

Okay, about the imperative, the following table describes how it is formed for each person.

imperativo afirmativoimperativo negativo
= indicativo, presente, 3a persona singular= "no" + subjuntivo, presente, 2a persona singular
usted (cortesía, 3a pers., sing.)= subjuntivo, presente, 3a persona singular= "no" + idem
ustedes (cortesía, 3a pers., pl.)= subjuntivo, presente, 3a persona plural= "no" + idem
nosotros/as= subjuntivo, presente, 1a persona plural= "no" + idem
vosotros/as= sustituir la "r" final del infinitivo por una "d"= "no" + subjuntivo, presente, 2a persona plural


 afirmativonegativo
amano ames
ustedameno ame
ustedesamenno amen
nosotros/asamemosno amemos
vosotros/asamadno améis
   
temeno temas
ustedtemano tema
ustedestemanno teman
nosotros/astemamosno temamos
vosotros/astemedno temáis
   
parteno partas
ustedpartano parta
ustedespartanno partan
nosotros/aspartamosno partamos
vosotros/aspartidno partáis



:hash:  ㆍespañol ㆍgramática

Last edited by gmads on Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

gmads wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:28 am
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 am

To put my question in short:

Is the step to turning the verb into the yo form present tense then drop the “o” just a memorization tool or is it a significant step?

Would it be any different if I took the verb “Beber” and turn it into the tú form present tense and just take of the “es”?:
Beber -> Bebes - the “es” ending + “as” = “No bebas el agua”

I don't see any benefit or purpose behind that method, because that step is completely unneeded: I would never teach anyone to do it that way.

As I described, the conjugation steps are: remove the infinitive ending and add the required (mood, tense, person) ending. With irregular verbs other changes may be needed.

Okay, about the imperative, the following table describes how it is formed for each person.

imperativo afirmativoimperativo negativo
= indicativo, presente, 3a persona singular= "no" + subjuntivo, presente, 2a persona singular
usted (cortesía, 3a pers., sing.)= subjuntivo, presente, 3a persona singular= "no" + idem
ustedes (cortesía, 3a pers., pl.)= subjuntivo, presente, 3a persona plural= "no" + idem
nosotros/as= subjuntivo, presente, 1a persona plural= "no" + idem
vosotros/as= sustituir la "r" final del infinitivo por una "d"= "no" + subjuntivo, presente, 2a persona plural


 afirmativonegativo
amano ames
ustedameno ame
ustedesamenno amen
nosotros/asamemosno amemos
vosotros/asamadno améis
   
temeno temas
ustedtemano tema
ustedestemanno teman
nosotros/astemamosno temamos
vosotros/astemedno temáis
   
parteno partas
ustedpartano parta
ustedespartanno partan
nosotros/aspartamosno partamos
vosotros/aspartidno partáis

Ah ok. Thank you very much for you time and answering my question!
I know that step is not necessary but just curious as to why it is even step.

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm
gmads wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:28 am
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 am

Is the step to turning the verb into the yo form present tense then drop the “o” just a memorization tool or is it a significant step?

I don't see any benefit or purpose behind that method, because that step is completely unneeded.

Ah ok. Thank you very much for you time and answering my question!
I know that step is not necessary but just curious as to why it is even step.

You're welcome.

I'd say that a "creative" someone somewhere decided that adding that step would help students :D

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

Cifi

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Cifi »

Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 am

Would it be any different if I took the verb “Beber” and turn it into the tú form present tense and just take of the “es”?:
Beber -> Bebes - the “es” ending + “as” = “No bebas el agua”

There's no difference with the majority of verbs, but some that are irregular in 1st person singular (yo) use this stem to build present subjunctive and thus negative commands, as both use the same forms:

Hacer - yo hago (vs tú haces) - ¡No lo hagas!
Tener - yo tengo (vs tú tienes) - ¡No tengas miedo!
Venir - yo vengo (vs tú vienes) - ¡No vengas conmigo!

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

User avatar
Yoong1eKangTerry
United States of America

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Yoong1eKangTerry »

gmads wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:23 pm
Yoong1eKangTerry wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm
gmads wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:28 am

I don't see any benefit or purpose behind that method, because that step is completely unneeded.

Ah ok. Thank you very much for you time and answering my question!
I know that step is not necessary but just curious as to why it is even step.

You're welcome.

I'd say that a "creative" someone somewhere decided that adding that step would help students :D

I figured that’s why it was there. As most verbs stems do not change with any form you put them in.

Native:🇺🇸(English)| Novice Mid: 🇪🇸(Spanish)|Beginner:🇰🇷(Korean)

Jimbo

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Jimbo »

If I had to guess, I'd say it was done that way because (outside of a few standalone words like 'quisiera') it seems to be usual to introduce the imperative mood before the subjunctive, so just saying 'subjunctive present' would have no meaning. Once you've covered how to form the subjunctive forms, the need for things like "take the 'yo' form of the verb" goes away.

Native language: 🇬🇧. Novice getting towards rookie: 🇪🇸. Beginner: 🇬🇷, 🇯🇵.

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am

If I had to guess, I'd say it was done that way because (outside of a few standalone words like 'quisiera') it seems to be usual to introduce the imperative mood before the subjunctive, so just saying 'subjunctive present' would have no meaning. Once you've covered how to form the subjunctive forms, the need for things like "take the 'yo' form of the verb" goes away.

You got me lost. The original post from the OP didn't mention subjunctives, just the imperative, although the second post didn't use the correct example as the OP made "cruzo" into "cruzas," which is not the informal imperative, but the indicative present, and that is why my corresponding answer only considered the indicative mood.

Once the OP remarked that the topic was indeed about having the informal negative as target of the transformation (beber → bebes → no bebas), I did show how to get the imperatives from the subjunctive forms. However, this was just how I chose to describe the process. The truth is that regardless of which way one chooses to go —from subjunctive to imperative, or viceversa— that does not take away the fact that one still has to do an initial effort to memorize either of the mood conjugations, therefore making useless steps (remove the ending and add the "o" then remove the "o" and add the "es")… useless :!: Which was after all, the central topic of the thread.


I were to teach someone how to create the negative imperative I would use a very simple mnemonic, which is the same I used when studying this subject in Italian:

  1. change the indicative present endings from -ar ending verbs into an E
  2. change the indicative present endings from -er/-ir ending verbs into an A

Once learned, it will be very easy for the student to learn the subjunctive form.

am-ARA → E

Indicativo

Subjuntivo

Imperativo

presente

presente

afirmativo

negativo

yoamoame

amasames¡ama!¡no ames!
él, ella, ustedamaame¡ame!¡no ame!
nosotros, nosotrasamamosamemos¡amemos!¡no amemos!
vosotros, vosotrasamáisaméis¡amad!¡no améis!
ellos, ellas, ustedesamanamen¡amen!¡no amen!
vosamásames, *amés¡amá!¡no ames, *amés!
 
tem-ERE → A

Indicativo

Subjuntivo

Imperativo

presente

presente

afirmativo

negativo

yotemotema

temestemas¡teme!¡no temas!
él, ella, ustedtemetema¡tema!¡no tema!
nosotros, nosotrastememostemamos¡temamos!¡no temamos!
vosotros, vosotrasteméistemáis¡temed!¡no temáis!
ellos, ellas, ustedestementeman¡teman!¡no teman!
vosteméstemas¡temé!¡no temas!
 
part-IRI → A

Indicativo

Subjuntivo

Imperativo

presente

presente

afirmativo

negativo

yopartoparta

partespartas¡parte!¡no partas!
él, ella, ustedparteparta¡parta!¡no parta!
nosotros, nosotraspartimospartamos¡partamos!¡no partamos!
vosotros, vosotraspartíspartáis¡partid!¡no partáis!
ellos, ellas, ustedespartenpartan¡partan!¡no partan!
vospartíspartas¡partí!¡no partas!

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

Jimbo

Re: Informal Negative Commands

Post by Jimbo »

What I think I was pointing out earlier was that they mention this round-about method of producing these conjugations for negative imperative, rather than simply saying that it shared them with present subjunctive, was that at the point in learning where people would first encounter them, just saying to use the subjunctive form would have no meaning. As for the round-about method of learning it, I think it's as @Cifi said. I believe it's done that way because quite a few irregular verbs use yo form stem-changes, with the exception of a few like 'comenzar' (and even that includes its yo form stem-change, just with another one added) and some other irregulars like 'dar' and 'ir'.

So we have our verb - let's say 'cerrar', and we need to conjugate it so we can say "Don't close that door!".

What's said at this point is thus, "Take the yo form (so 'cierro'), drop the -o and add the needed ending ('cierres'), and finally check if any additional stem-changes are needed (none, still 'cierres')".

You'll end up with "¡No cierres esa puerta!" once you've translated the other words.

The problem with it, of course, comes with those irregular verbs whose present indicative yo forms don't end in -o (like 'dar', 'ir', 'ser' etc.) so a better course would be 'Make whatever the needed stem-change is, and switch the endings' - the problem is memorising those stem-changes first.

Native language: 🇬🇧. Novice getting towards rookie: 🇪🇸. Beginner: 🇬🇷, 🇯🇵.

Post Reply

Return to “Sentence discussions”