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Spanish

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MJR
Canada

Spanish

Post by MJR »

I am learning Spanish but duolingo only lets me learning American Spanish, probably because I live in North America. I use a Spanish grammar, translation app, and verb conjugation. Quite often Duo refuses my answers although they are correct. How can I access Spanish as spoken and written in Spain?

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pawndemic
Germany

Re: Spanish

Post by pawndemic »

According to my experience in GER-ESP and ENG-ESP the Spanish is a good mixture of various accents. I understand that they don't want to maintain two or more courses, but I wished they would at least somehow mark the different regions. Therefore Duolingo was never my main tool to learn Spanish.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

[...] but duolingo only lets me learn American Spanish [...]

I'm sure that most Spanish speaking people from America (the continent) would disagree with that statement :D because to actually talk about "American Spanish" the course would have to include terms from all of the Spanish speaking countries of both the continent and the Antilles (e.g. Cuba).

A good example of that would be having to include the term "autobús" and "guagua," the equivalent term used in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic and other Caribbean countries. Ok, let's not stretch it that much; what about including { gaseosa, refresco, soda } or { fleco, flequillo, pava, capul, etc }?

Regardless of the number of terms used, what about the multiple meanings of a same word? Take, for example, an innocent looking term like "suéter" ("sweater"), where in Mexico and most countries is used to mean a warm, long-sleeved garment, but in Panama it is used to refer to a T-shirt :o And I am not even getting into the multiple synonyms used in any particular country, for example, { cansón = molesto, fastidioso, incómodo } (Colombia) :P

Ok, I don't know about the Eng–Spa course but after checking the list of words I see it includes an assorted collection of terms from both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, for example, "gafas" from Spain and also "lentes" from the other side. The same for words like "nevera" (Spain and many American countries like Colombia and Panama) and "refrigerador" (Mexico and others). What about terms like { auto, carro, coche }, { apartamento, departamento, piso }, { venís, vienes } for example. By the way, I wonder about Duo using "venís" without including "vos" in its list of words.

On the other hand, I don't see the words { acera, banqueta } ("sidewalk"), so I imagine Duo must be using "calle" ("street") as a general purpose term. However, I see that andén is listed, so it would be interesting in what sense it is being used. For the word hasta, its usage must be the traditional one. Surprisingly, I also notice that "vosotros" is not listed (Spanish second-person plural: you all), it only includes “ustedes."

Worth noticing is the inclusion of an Anglicism like "hobbies" instead of using the correct Spanish term: "pasatiempos", however, it includes both { tenis, zapato deportivo }.


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Last edited by gmads on Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

Quite often Duo refuses my answers although they are correct.

By the way, that usually happens because Duo's response set is quite limited and the available options were selected arbitrarily. For the personal pronoun, they, for example, Duo will inconsistently admit either ellas, ellos, or both. The same will happen with the personal pronoun, you.

If you are absolutely sure that a rejected answer is correct, that is, you have checked it, then you can use the "my answer should have been accepted" option, that will increase the probability of that answer making it to the list of allowed answers.

If you have doubts about a rejected answer, you can of course use these forums to solve them.

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Cifi

Re: Spanish

Post by Cifi »

[mention]gmads[/mention]:
I got to know el andén referring to a platform of a train station or maybe a bus terminal in Spain, and I interpreted it this way on Duolingo (possibly because I wasn't aware of other meanings).

And I'm sure that I learned la acera on Duolingo, because I didn't know the word before. It was something like Este cruce es peligroso, despidámonos en la acera.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

Cifi wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:57 am

I got to know el andén referring to a platform of a train station or maybe a bus terminal in Spain, and I interpreted it this way on Duolingo (possibly because I wasn't aware of other meanings).

But you now know one or two others, I imagine :)

Cifi wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:57 am

And I'm sure that I learned la acera on Duolingo, because I didn't know the word before. It was something like Este cruce es peligroso, despidámonos en la acera.

You are right about the sentence:

So, this confirms it, the word list is inaccurate, incomplete.

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Jimbo

Re: Spanish

Post by Jimbo »

gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm

Surprisingly, I also notice that "vosotros" is not listed (Spanish second-person plural: you all), it only includes “ustedes."

This part is primarily why people say Duolingo favours American Spanish, along a few comparatively minor things like 'carro' rather than 'coche', 'jugo' rather than 'zumo' et cetara.

There was also something about 'el baño' versus 'los servicios', but I put that down to trying to introduce a dichotomy that exists between English-speaking countries where I'm not sure one exists in Spanish?

Worth noticing is the inclusion of an Anglicism like "hobbies" instead of using the correct Spanish term: "pasatiempos", however, it includes both { tenis, zapato deportivo }.

I assume that's literally the Spanish translation of 'pastimes', which is more or less synonymous with hobbies in English if a little old fashioned?

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John238922
Australia

Re: Spanish

Post by John238922 »

gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm
MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

[...] but duolingo only lets me learn American Spanish [...]

I'm sure that most Spanish speaking people from America (the continent) would disagree with that statement :D because to actually talk about "American Spanish" the course would have to include terms from all of the Spanish speaking countries of both the continent and the Antilles (e.g. Cuba).

I think you're being a bit picky.

I think most people would understand 'American Spanish' in a similar way that they understand 'American English'

After three years studying on Duolingo, I'm a little concerned I'll arrive in Spain in a few months time sounding like a bit player from Miami Vice.

I suggest your excellent post here rather proves the point viewtopic.php?p=40404-cuando-chequeé-el ... -es#p40404

I'm pretty sure most of the Anglicisms you mention didn't travel from England to Spain, but migrated across the Rio Grande.

Jimbo

Re: Spanish

Post by Jimbo »

John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am
gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm
MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

[...] but duolingo only lets me learn American Spanish [...]

I'm sure that most Spanish speaking people from America (the continent) would disagree with that statement :D because to actually talk about "American Spanish" the course would have to include terms from all of the Spanish speaking countries of both the continent and the Antilles (e.g. Cuba).

I think you're being a bit picky.

I think most people would understand 'American Spanish' in a similar way that they understand 'American English'

After three years studying on Duolingo, I'm a little concerned I'll arrive in Spain in a few months time sounding like a bit player from Miami Vice.

I suggest your excellent post here rather proves the point viewtopic.php?p=40404-cuando-chequeé-el ... -es#p40404

I'm pretty sure most of the Anglicisms you mention didn't travel from England to Spain, but migrated across the Rio Grande.

I can more easily believe 'chequear' went from England to Spain, as the spelling 'cheque' is rather less common in America, but I have no idea how it could've happened to end up with that spelling for that meaning and it makes me wonder if it was indirect. The problem is, 'cheque' is a noun (which I think is still 'cheque' in Spanish) rather than a verb, and secondly it's the filled in slip that tells a bank the writer is paying somebody and would they please transfer the money. It doesn't share any meaning with the verb 'to check' at all (other than that the bank has to make sure there's sufficient funds to transfer), so the choice of spelling here seems rather strange.

(I don't think Duolingo teaches anything that wouldn't be understood in Spain. It's just a question of whether you'd be able to understand them back.)

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pawndemic
Germany

Re: Spanish

Post by pawndemic »

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am

I can more easily believe 'chequear' went from England to Spain, as the spelling 'cheque' is rather less common in America, but I have no idea how it could've happened to end up with that spelling for that meaning and it makes me wonder if it was indirect.

The spelling proves only litte. Often when the RAE incorporates english words they change the spelling. A good example is mitin Try to figure out what is the spelling in English.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am
gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm
MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

[...] but duolingo only lets me learn American Spanish [...]

I'm sure that most Spanish speaking people from America (the continent) would disagree with that statement :D because to actually talk about "American Spanish" the course would have to include terms from all of the Spanish speaking countries of both the continent and the Antilles (e.g. Cuba).

I think you're being a bit picky.

Not really. Mine was a funny, light-hearted introduction to make a general point, that is, that there is no actual American Spanish as if it were a precise distinguishable Spanish variant.

John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am

I think most people would understand 'American Spanish' in a similar way that they understand 'American English'

If there is no "American Spanish," what would that be? I think most people would agree that since Mexican Spanish is the predominant Spanish in the Americas —in addition to being the one with the largest number of speakers, it is the one typically used for dubbing movies—, to speak of an American Spanish, in general terms, is the same as speaking of a Mexican Spanish. So why not just say, Mexican Spanish?

This is similar to the still persistent notion that there is a "standard" Spanish. There isn't any.

By the same token, one might ask, what is American English? Of course, the answer here is almost obvious because as the people of the United States took the name of the continent, to speak of "Americans" has come to mean to speak of "persons born in the United States." How absurd is that? It is as if speaking of Europeans meant speaking of the French or the Italian or the Germans. Anyway, the fact is that American English is the same as the English spoken in the United States, not the one spoken in Canada, Belize, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Dominica, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, etc.

John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am

After three years studying on Duolingo, I'm a little concerned I'll arrive in Spain in a few months time sounding like a bit player from Miami Vice.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Your accent will give you away anyway, even if your vocabulary were to be 100% Castilian (synonym to "Spanish", but used to denote that spoken in Spain).

John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am

I suggest your excellent post here rather proves the point viewtopic.php?p=40404-cuando-chequeé-el ... -es#p40404

I'm pretty sure most of the Anglicisms you mention didn't travel from England to Spain, but migrated across the Rio Grande.

I don't think I can agree to that. First of all, I don't see why there should be anything preventing Spaniards from assimilating British words into their vocabulary; they have assimilated French words, haven't they? So that proves that even if they are careful and try to keep their language pure, some foreign words do manage to creep in.

Secondly, "checar" is mostly used in Mexico (neighbor to the United States and home to the predominant Spanish in the Americas), whereas "chequear" is found both in Spain and most other American Spanish-speaking countries. Given that those other countries do not have an English speaking country as a neighbor, it sounds more that factible that they actually inherited the "chequear" spelling from Spain.


Back then, all but one of the sources for the study were from Spain.

The primary sources from which the Anglicisms were extracted were a selection of newspapers published between 1800 and 1850:

  • Diario de Madrid (1788-1825).
  • Gazeta de México (1784-1835).
  • Mercurio de España (1784-1830).
  • Correo Mercantil de España y sus Indias (1792-1808).
  • Eco del Comercio (1834-1849).

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am
John238922 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:56 am
gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm

I'm sure that most Spanish speaking people from America (the continent) would disagree with that statement [...]

I suggest your excellent post here rather proves the point viewtopic.php?p=40404-cuando-chequeé-el ... -es#p40404

I'm pretty sure most of the Anglicisms you mention didn't travel from England to Spain, but migrated across the Rio Grande.

I can more easily believe 'chequear' went from England to Spain, as the spelling 'cheque' is rather less common in America [...]

You have it right, at least regarding the origin:

The American English word for the slip of paper that authorizes your bank to make a payment is check, which is the adjusted spelling of the British English cheque. That word comes from exchequer which is like a bank, and so a cheque is a note that has the seal of the bank: an official piece of paper. Cheque can be used as a verb meaning "withdraw."

At what moment and why it began to be used as a verb in Spain... I don't know, maybe the idea did came from Mexican Spanish, they just kept the spelling.

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am

It's just a question of whether you'd be able to understand them back.)

Indeed! :D

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

pawndemic wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:12 am
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am

I can more easily believe 'chequear' went from England to Spain, as the spelling 'cheque' is rather less common in America, but I have no idea how it could've happened to end up with that spelling for that meaning and it makes me wonder if it was indirect.

The spelling proves only litte. Often when the RAE incorporates english words they change the spelling.

On the contrary, the spelling proves quite a lot! In Spain (and some other countries) they change the spelling of foreign words to correspond to how they sound. In Mexico we tend to keep the original spelling. For example: yóquey vs. jockey, sánguche (or sángüiche) vs. sandwich, güisqui vs. whiskey.

As we Mexicans are in general terms quite reluctant to using the phonetic spelling of foreign words (regardless of what the RAE suggests doing), the spelling does tend to indicate where the word is mostly used.

pawndemic wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:12 am

A good example is mitin Try to figure out what is the spelling in English.

Not really. Easy peasy ;)

Tb. mitín en acep. 1, Arg., Chile, Nic. y Par.

Del ingl. meeting.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:41 am
gmads wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:05 pm

Surprisingly, I also notice that "vosotros" is not listed (Spanish second-person plural: you all), it only includes “ustedes."

This part is primarily why people say Duolingo favours American Spanish, along a few comparatively minor things like 'carro' rather than 'coche', 'jugo' rather than 'zumo' et cetara.

There was also something about 'el baño' versus 'los servicios', but I put that down to trying to introduce a dichotomy that exists between English-speaking countries where I'm not sure one exists in Spanish?

As the list of words in Duome seems to be a little bit inaccurate, it would be an interesting exercise to get all the actual Spanish sentences from each and every "From ___ to Spanish" course, extract the list of words and then determine —for those that do change from one country to another— where are they used. This would allow making the European vs. American Spanish comparison. Which one would win? :D

In Mexico we use "zumo" along with "jugo" (with the same general meaning):

Aunque sin duda alguna el zumo de naranja es una opción nutritiva


Jimbo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:41 am

Worth noticing is the inclusion of an Anglicism like "hobbies" instead of using the correct Spanish term: "pasatiempos", however, it includes both { tenis, zapato deportivo }.

I assume that's literally the Spanish translation of 'pastimes', which is more or less synonymous with hobbies in English if a little old fashioned?

Interesting fact! I didn't know about it. Thanks :)

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Jimbo

Re: Spanish

Post by Jimbo »

gmads wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:27 pm

If there is no "American Spanish," what would that be? I think most people would agree that since Mexican Spanish is the predominant Spanish in the Americas —in addition to being the one with the largest number of speakers, it is the one typically used for dubbing movies—, to speak of an American Spanish, in general terms, is the same as speaking of a Mexican Spanish. So why not just say, Mexican Spanish?

This is similar to the still persistent notion that there is a "standard" Spanish. There isn't any.

I suspect they probably mean the dialect of Spanish spoken along the USA/Mexico border regions - Duolingo is an American company after all.

By the same token, one might ask, what is American English? Of course, the answer here is almost obvious because as the people of the United States took the name of the continent, to speak of "Americans" has come to mean to speak of "persons born in the United States." How absurd is that? It is as if speaking of Europeans meant speaking of the French or the Italian or the Germans. Anyway, the fact is that American English is the same as the English spoken in the United States, not the one spoken in Canada, Belize, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Dominica, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, etc.

I suspect the reason for this is twofold. Firstly, at the time, English speakers in the Americas belonged to two groups - British colonial/imperial subjects, and the population of the United States, and both Britain and the USA had something of an 'us' and 'not us' mentality. Secondly, 'United Statesian' sounds really dreadful, and while 'United States of American' sounds a little better, it's also quite long so would invariably be shortened to 'American' anyway.

I don't think I can agree to that. First of all, I don't see why there should be anything preventing Spaniards from assimilating British words into their vocabulary; they have assimilated French words, haven't they? So that proves that even if they are careful and try to keep their language pure, some foreign words do manage to creep in.

And that's one of the ways that languages grow.

Although when the English adopt a word, they often qualify it in a way that reflects on wherever they took it from because English already has so many words for things. For instance 'sombrero', which entered English not as 'hat' but as 'Mexican-style wide-rimmed hat' (I think I can guess which border that crossed).

gmads wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:07 pm
pawndemic wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:12 am
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am

I can more easily believe 'chequear' went from England to Spain, as the spelling 'cheque' is rather less common in America, but I have no idea how it could've happened to end up with that spelling for that meaning and it makes me wonder if it was indirect.

The spelling proves only litte. Often when the RAE incorporates english words they change the spelling.

On the contrary, the spelling proves quite a lot! In Spain (and some other countries) they change the spelling of foreign words to correspond to how they sound. In Mexico we tend to keep the original spelling. For example: yóquey vs. jockey, sánguche (or sángüiche) vs. sandwich, güisqui vs. whiskey.

As we Mexicans are in general terms quite reluctant to using the phonetic spelling of foreign words (regardless of what the RAE suggests doing), the spelling does tend to indicate where the word is mostly used.

OK, that's interesting. Thank you.

gmads wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:37 pm
Jimbo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:41 am

This part is primarily why people say Duolingo favours American Spanish, along a few comparatively minor things like 'carro' rather than 'coche', 'jugo' rather than 'zumo' et cetara.

There was also something about 'el baño' versus 'los servicios', but I put that down to trying to introduce a dichotomy that exists between English-speaking countries where I'm not sure one exists in Spanish?

As the list of words in Duome seems to be a little bit inaccurate, it would be an interesting exercise to get all the actual Spanish sentences from each and every "From ___ to Spanish" course, extract the list of words and then determine —for those that do change from one country to another— where are they used. This would allow making the European vs. American Spanish comparison. Which one would win? :D

I think that would be a very exhausting exercise.

In Mexico we use "zumo" along with "jugo" (with the same general meaning):

I got the sense they were saying that the Spanish didn't use 'jugo' more than the reverse. I have no idea how true or false that might be.

Aunque sin duda alguna el zumo de naranja es una opción nutritiva


Jimbo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:41 am

I assume that's literally the Spanish translation of 'pastimes', which is more or less synonymous with hobbies in English if a little old fashioned?

Interesting fact! I didn't know about it. Thanks :)

You're welcome.

It frequently gets mistyped as 'past times' or 'pass times', so if you ever see those in a sentence where 'hobbies' would make a lot more sense, assume 'pastimes' was what they were going for.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:08 am
gmads wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:27 pm

If there is no "American Spanish," what would that be? I think most people would agree that since Mexican Spanish is the predominant Spanish in the Americas —in addition to being the one with the largest number of speakers, it is the one typically used for dubbing movies—, to speak of an American Spanish, in general terms, is the same as speaking of a Mexican Spanish.

I suspect they probably mean the dialect of Spanish spoken along the USA/Mexico border regions - Duolingo is an American company after all.

Not likely at all.

The so-called Spanish spoken on both sides of the border (v. pocho, pochismo) is very "peculiar" (to say the least) because English words are "made" Spanish and used as such. For example:

  • estacionar (to park) → aparcar: "a" (prefix to indicate direction (toward); as in: aterrizar, alunizar) + "park" + "ar" (infinite verb ending)
  • camioneta (truck) → troca
  • enseñar (to teach) → tichar

Believe me, this is nothing one would want to mess with :lol:

Anyway, my answer came from MJR's original comment, "but duolingo only lets me learning American Spanish [...]." I don't what Duo says about the Spanish they use.

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:08 am

[...] because as the people of the United States took the name of the continent, to speak of "Americans" has come to mean to speak of "persons born in the United States."

I suspect the reason for this is twofold. Firstly, at the time, English speakers in the Americas belonged to two groups - British colonial/imperial subjects, and the population of the United States, and both Britain and the USA had something of an 'us' and 'not us' mentality. Secondly, 'United Statesian' sounds really dreadful, and while 'United States of American' sounds a little better, it's also quite long so would invariably be shortened to 'American' anyway.

Yes, I do get the reasons behind the fact, but that doesn't take away the total absurdity of it, as no one who is not from the United States can say that s/he is American without being confused with someone from the USA unless s/he indicates that s/he means, "from the American continent!"

Yes, it sounds dreadful... but that's what it is. In Spanish they are called, "estadounidenses." Anyway, invariably? Mhh, I do not think so. What about, "Usanian," which is short and straight to the point, or what about, "Usmerican," or just, "US citizen." By the way, the "I'm North American" option, doesn't work either, as both Canadians and Mexicans are North Americans.

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:08 am
gmads wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:37 pm

[...] it would be an interesting exercise to get all the actual Spanish sentences [...]

I think that would be a very exhausting exercise.

It would seem to be like that, but it is not that complicated. I imagine that all the sentences are available somewhere, or maybe someone has already saved them (I did that in my Italian course, for example). Their processing is quite direct.

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Gunslinger
United States of America

Re: Spanish

Post by Gunslinger »

MJR wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:36 pm

I am learning Spanish but duolingo only lets me learning American Spanish, probably because I live in North America. I use a Spanish grammar, translation app, and verb conjugation. Quite often Duo refuses my answers although they are correct. How can I access Spanish as spoken and written in Spain?

I'm not sure about that. I live in New Mexico. There's a lot of Spanglish around here. English words are used and often modified. Something like a Sink may become Sinkia. On top of that I've traveled around Latin America and Spain. Every country, and even regions of countries have their own dialect.

It's just like traveling around the UK. I loved it when someone actually told me England is a state of the US, but we're divided by a language. :lol: Overall you understand what they are saying. Likewise, a good friend of mine is from Spain and she has no problem conversing with people who speak Mexican Spanish.

Having said all the, and I'm like 3/4 of the way through the entire Spanish course, Duolingo is an App. It's not some form of AI. You'll learn to give the translation it's looking for. On top of that there's the oddities where we, native English speakers, say things different. Like in English The, That, It, etc are often implied but not said as in Spanish. Sometimes, not all the time, Duo will mark you wrong for leaving them out. So be it.

You get used to it. I'm to the point where I'm not always translating in my head. I get what was said. But now I answer the way I would say it in English, without reading the Spanish sentence. A typical thing that gets me is getting rid of all the negative/double negative in the Spanish sentence. Duo will sometimes accept the answer and other times it wants you to work the sentence with negatives. No big deal, get on with it.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Spanish

Post by gmads »

gmads wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:55 pm
  • estacionar (to park) → aparcar: "a" (prefix to indicate direction (toward); as in: aterrizar, alunizar) + "park" + "ar" (infinite verb ending)
  • camioneta (truck) → troca

Por ejemplo… 😉

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

🇲🇽 :us:  ·  :it: 🇧🇷  ·  :ru: 🇦🇪

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