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Formal or Informal

Rickiefl
Scotland

Formal or Informal

Post by Rickiefl »

I didn’t notice this the first time I did the German story about Bea meeting the CEO, but doing it as a revision today, it struck me that everyone in the story…Bea, her boss and the CEO, used du, when addressing each other.
In an earlier life, I dealt frequently with German businesses and they were way more formal than those I dealt with from other countries. Eg. If I phoned to speak to Hans, and someone else answered his phone, they would refer to him as Herr Doktor Schmidt. So I can accept Bea and her boss maybe using du, but certainly not either of them with the CEO.
I also reread the story in French and Spanish. In Spanish, everyone speaks informally as in the German version. However in the French version, everyone addresses one another formally!
Who knew the French were more formal than the Germans?

Last edited by Rickiefl on Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Native: British 🇬🇧 Scottish. Learning: French 🇫🇷,German 🇩🇪,Spanish 🇪🇸

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Explorer
Portugal

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by Explorer »

I've asked myself this question at some point. Do some languages sound more formal than others? For instance the honorific speech in Japanese, or 敬語 (keigo), is extremely complex, while in English the pronoun "you" can be used for everything. You can use it when addressing your best friend or when addressing your boss. It doesn't matter.

Furthermore, the complexity of linguistic registers not only differ from language to language, but also within every language itself, depending on where the speakers live. In Brazil for example the pronoun você has lost its original formality and is now commonly used in any situation, formal or informal. On the other hand, in Portugal we prefer to use the pronoun tu when we have a close relationship with someone. It would be very weird to say você to a friend or relative.

I would love to know what it's like in other languages. I'm really curious to know how formality works in Arabic, Czech, Hebrew, Polish, Russian... Native speakers, I summon you! 😊

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MatOzone
Catalonia

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by MatOzone »

In some dialects of the catalan language, we have three "formality" levels: "Tu", "Vostè" i "Vos":

"Tu" is what we currently use when we address someone with whom we have a close social relationship. You can omit the "tu" word
"You are my best friend" -> "(Tu) ets la meva millor amiga"

"Vostè" is the formal form for "you", when addressing to someone who "deserves some respect", and uses the grammatical third person, singular. You cannot omit the "vostè" word.
"You are a good teacher" -> "Vostè és un bon mestre"
"He is a good teacher" -> "Ell és un bon mestre"

"Vos" is reserved for very special respected persons, using the second person, plural. You can omit the "vos" word
"You are the wisest woman in town" -> "(Vos) sou la dona més sàbia de la ciutat"
"You are citizens of the world" -> "Vosaltres sou ciutadans del món"

As far as I know, these three formality levels also appear in other latin languages, but are hardly used.

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LICA98
Finland

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by LICA98 »

I've also noticed this that different languages display a different level of formality when looking at site interfaces

for example many sites (facebook, twitter, duolingo) use the informal pronouns in some languages (Spanish, French, Polish) but in Russian for example almost any site will use the formal pronoun no matter how informal the site is (i.e. even in video games they address you formally)

how I would rank the languages I know from most formal to least
Russian/Ukrainian
Czech/Slovak
Polish
French
German
Spanish/Portuguese
Romanian
Finnish
Swedish

in the last 2 formal language exists in theory but the standard practice is to address anyone informally including people you don't know

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MoniqueMaRie
Germany

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by MoniqueMaRie »

In Germany, interaction within companies is becoming more and more informal.
But in a professional environment, it is still customary to address strangers formally with "Sie".

But that doesn't apply to a ski course, for example. There you are immediately on first name terms. And on the internet you are on first-name terms anyway.

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Corinnebelle

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by Corinnebelle »

English used to have informal and formal "you"s. At one time "thou" was informal and you was formal. Today "thou" is archaic and we use you for everyone. Who would have thought. See Why Did We Stop Using 'Thou'? No doubt one of the reasons the Mayflower set sail was persecution over a word! People desired freedom to talk how they wished! Fancy being persecuted for a word! Times were different back then.

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MoniqueMaRie
Germany

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by MoniqueMaRie »

Most people (at least here in Germany) think that the english "you" is the German "Du". But the english "Du=thou" is out of use and people always address each other with the formal "you".

I learned this when I learned in school "our father, thou art in heaven..."

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by EranBarLev »

Explorer wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:49 pm

I would love to know what it's like in other languages. I'm really curious to know how formality works in Arabic, Czech, Hebrew, Polish, Russian... Native speakers, I summon you! 😊

In Hebrew there is no formal "you". We have 4 "you"s according to gender and number, but they are all used regardless of formality. There are formal ways to address people, such as "אדוני" = "my sir", but you use the same "you" as for a friend.

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Rickiefl
Scotland

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by Rickiefl »

Just revised the story where Bea is working from home and her immediate boss Paula calls her Sie. A bit of consistency please Duo!!

Native: British 🇬🇧 Scottish. Learning: French 🇫🇷,German 🇩🇪,Spanish 🇪🇸

Deleted User 3754

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by Deleted User 3754 »

.

Last edited by Deleted User 3754 on Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gmads
Mexico

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by gmads »

Corinnebelle wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:42 pm

Fancy being persecuted for a word! Times were different back then.

Were they? :?

Our troubling times say different :(

“Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose“ ("The more things change, the more they stay the same"; 1849, Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr).


:hash:  ㆍenglish ㆍgeneral ㆍinteresting

Last edited by gmads on Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Corinnebelle

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by Corinnebelle »

[mention]gmads[/mention] Looks like I might have to delete my comment, if this will create a controversy on here!

I don't want to make a war on here about words, now I don't think people in the Western world are hanging over words, but because there are no doubt people here from both sides of this debate you mention, while we are all entitled to our own opinions, I'm not sure this forum is open to such diverse discussions. As you say troubling times are these and peaceful discussions about what you mention is unlikely. So let us change the subject, lest I must remove things to prevent a war. :(

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by gmads »

Corinnebelle wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:54 pm

@gmads Looks like I might have to delete my comment, if this will create a controversy on here!

I don't want to make a war on here about words, now I don't think people in the Western world are hanging over words, but because there are no doubt people here from both sides of this debate you mention, while we are all entitled to our own opinions, I'm not sure this forum is open to such diverse discussions. As you say troubling times are these and peaceful discussions about what you mention is unlikely. So let us change the subject, lest I must remove things to prevent a war. :(

I was not debating anything, at all, as I did not even made a statement, in any direction (pro or against), about the topics exposed in the videos. I just put an example of how nowadays things are not that different from past times. So, if anything, I was just countering the idea that "times were different back then," specially in regards to the use of words ;)

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: Formal or Informal

Post by PtolemysXX »

Explorer wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:49 pm

I'm really curious to know how formality works in Arabic, Czech, Hebrew, Polish, Russian... Native speakers, I summon you! 😊

My native language, Polish, has in general two ways of addressing people:

  • Informal -> second person singular (when speaking to one person) or plural (when talking to a group)

  • Formal -> third person singular or plural.

When you address someone formally, the nouns will be in the vocative case (in the informal mode nominative often replaces the vocative) and the sentence will begin like this:

Panie Kowalski / Pani Kowalska, Panie dyrektorze, Pani doktor Kowalska + whatever follows
Which means Mr. / Mrs + (if known – optional) name/title or title+name (very formal).

If neither the name nor the title is known one can use the simplified form “Proszę Pana”, “Proszę Pani”. It works best to address strangers. Note that adressing is gender specific.

Talking to clergymen is a special case (advanced usage 😊 ): “rank and file” priests are addressed “Proszę księdza”; “Pan” = Mister, may not be used in this context (unlike, e.g. in German “Herr Pfarrer”).

In using the third person as a formal way of addressing we differ from other slavic languages where typically the second person plural is used (like in French). This is a legacy of the so called “Democracy of Nobles” that existed till the end of 18th century. The “Democracy of Nobles” is long gone, the way the nobility addressed themselves became democratized and is now used by the entire society.

The second person plural may be sometimes used as some sort of intermediate level between the informal or formal. I use it in settings where I do not know someone well and I have the feeling that we might become informal but we are not there yet.

The formal way of addressing has some fine distintions in the imperative. Here one can use the more polite form (“Proszę usiąść” = Please take a seat) or the less polite (“Niech Pan/Pani siądzie”). That latter form may even have a derogatory meaning (not an informal but not nice in the slightest) depending on the context and intonation.

Children are always adressed in the informal way. As they grow up and begin to look like adults they will begin to hear more and more the formal way of addressing them. The transition is very gradual in private life, just like growing itself; in institutional settings the change is abrupt. High school students are “you”, the university students become immediately “Mr.” or “Mrs.” (“Miss” has been out of use for long already).

The reverse transition from formal to informal in the adult life is quite tricky. There is no rule to it and I find Poles a bit more formal than, e.g. Germans, but that difference is quite faint.

In general I find it often complicated and I envy the languages that do not have that grammatical distinction. On the other side…

I am learning Korean on Duolingo. Modern Korean, according to some sources, has five different levels of speech (I take the numbers from a textbook I have, Duolingo uses a different convention):

  • 5. Formal- polite (works in business environment, talking to strangers, but will also sound “stiff” in a long run).

  • 4. Informal-polite (becoming a de facto standard in urban life)

  • 1. informal / intimate (within a family and among close friends).

  • 2. neutral for written text, news etc.

  • 3. informal, showing some sort of respect to conversation partners inferior in the hierarchy

Levels 1- 3 may be mixed by natives in one conversation but understanding when that is permissible and when to use which informal modes is science that is hard to grasp for a foreigner.

Different formality/politeness levels use diffenterent personal pronouns, add different suffixes to verbs or use different verbs altogether.

I hope that someone with a good knowledge of Korean could shed more light on the Korean way of addressing people…

In my opinion Duolingo does a fairly good job teaching the speech levels in an intuitive way. Personal pronouns vary depending on who talks to whom and about whom. Duolingo handles that to an extent. But they give up on Vietnamese - it seems to be way harder – here a quotation from Duolingo‘s Tipps for the Vietnamese course:

Due to the almost unlimited combinations of pronouns, we cannot add them all to the database. Therefore, do not try to enter different pronouns other than those above or your answer will be marked wrong.

I wonder what Vietnamese learners could say about that?

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