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Mission Creep Topic is solved

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BizProf
United States of America

Mission Creep

Post by BizProf »

Is it me? Or is Duolingo experiencing mission creep and drifting more toward profit-driven goals and away from Luis von Ahn's original mission to offer everyone a chance for a free language education: "no hidden fees, no premium content, just free."

The mission above comes directly from Duolingo's "About Us" page. However, Super Duolingo is the epitome of a premium content service, one gives Duolingo money to gain convenience benefits, notably removing distractions and time consuming activities that don't advance learning.

Duolingo prides itself in advancing machine learning science development. The past month has been pretty wild for Duolingo redesign. Gone are the trees, replaced with a path with a supposedly individually tailored learning path based on an individual's progression through a course. The rationale behind this is the old tree system didn't force structured learning. Students were free to bounce around and learn material as they chose. The path now forces you to learn in a set progression. This is a bad model since it forces linear learning upon every, thus assuming that people learn in linear fashion. The old model allowed for layered learning. When one was becoming frustrated in a skill, they could move to another until they were ready to return to the other challenge. The upside to that was advancement through the course.

I admit that since the change to the path model, I have not advanced in Duolingo. I have been stuck at the first lesson in Unit 53 for over a month.

Of course one can lay blame on me for not taking the time to push through the level. I'm not going to challenge that.

However, I will point out that Duolingo is becoming very good at becoming a predatory model for commerce. While there are people out there who don't deal with highly competitive obsessive-compulsive ADHD behavior, some do. Duolingo's business model is demonstrating that it can capture revenue from these types.

I noticed today that Duolingo removed the three-heart attempts to complete a unit legendary trophy challenge level. Actually, it was a two attempt feature because the third heart was your last try to pass the level. The two-attempt feature was useful since it allowed you to correct a mistake in this challenge. At least for me. Duolingo admits that it runs betas using live students as test subjects. Maybe I'm simply a test for this new "teaching strategy."

I can see the logic in removing the hearts. It commands absolute focus on the part of the learner. One must not only ensure the correct translation of a passage, but also be absolutely certain that there are zero keystroke entries in the answer. The three-heart model was good because it allowed for input entry. I often was correct in translation, but erred in transcription, especially when typing via iPhone. The hearts allowed me to reattempt the transcription error.

Again, the new zero-tolerance policy is useful for forcing absolute attention to the lesson. However, it overlooks the learner's ability to keyboard. I find I spend more time entering an answer that I do with reinforcing the lesson. I used to complete a challenge level in about 7 minutes when I was allowed two transcription errors. I noticed that the new model requires more than 15 minutes to complete since I need to ensure that I entered my response correctly. I spend more time keyboarding than I do learning.

The new "model" is predatory in that in lieu of hearts, I can now "spend" 5 gems to keep advancing through the level. While 5 gems isn't much, one can burn through them quickly if they are having a rather distracted or fumble finger day. Of course, when one runs out of gems, they can buy more. This is just one of the predatory strategies Duolingo is doing that is driven for profit rather than its mission to offer everyone a chance for a free language education.

Duolingo capitalizes on competition.

The very first competitive strategy is the streak. I'm now up to 2194 days. It would be longer, but I was dumb in my early days and set my daily XP goal too high. Back then you lost a streak if you didn't reach your set daily goal. I would be up around 24-hundred days if I just kept my goal low back then. I'm glad they took that away. Just checking in for a quick lesson or story on a busy day has kept my streak alive this long.

There are some days when one simply cannot log on. Travel. Illness. Just need a day off. Streak freezes are a godsend here. This is where my gems are important. I use my gems to buy vacation days.

Duolingo attempts to use my competitive obsessive behavior to take my gems from me.

Have you noticed how long this post is? Yes, I know I have OCD and ADHD, and I'm very competitive. Fortunately I have been able to dissuade myself putting effort into reaching and parking myself in the Diamond League, instead placing more value into learning my language and putting my effort there rather than trying to get XP just to "win." But every now and then I do find myself getting to the top of a league, which means that I earn gems. And I need gems to buy streak freezes.

Duolingo openly admits that the Leagues are based on the theory that competition motivates learning. Very Western value. Competitive rather than cooperative learning. Of course getting a high-five or celebration from a friend for an accomplishment is a cooperative model, Duolingo doesn't put as much effort into it since cooperation doesn't sell gems, except when you want to give some away as a gift to a partner to motivate them to contribute to a Friend Quest.

I turned off my Friend Quest. I'm not sure how Duolingo's algorithm works here, but I keep getting stuck with social loafers. Perhaps the theory is that I being a high XP performer will motivate those who check into the game only once or twice per week. It's clear that whoever designed that strategy is unfamiliar with the concept of social loafing.

Streak Freezes are one way to sell gems. The other is the Powerup challenge. This is when one is encouraged to earn XP by completing timed activities. This is a arcade game hook-em strategy. Entice a high reward, but make it mechanically impossible to complete the challenge, however one can "buy" extra time with gems.

Again, for me, gems mean streak freezes.

But being competitive, I'm tempted to surrender my precious gems just to get the small rush one gets when the arcade game pays out. Albeit, in XP, which don't earn you many gems.

I have been good at stopping the arcade game when I can no longer complete the "challenge" in the allotted time.

The newest strategy however has motivated me to spend the past hour writing this discussion post. I hope that others see it and pass the word that Duolingo is starting to become unethical as it drifts away from its original goal to bring the world closer together by enabling multi-linguistic communication and instead just going for the money.

The Legendary Trophy Trap

When Duolingo started, the goal was to get gold and keep your eggs from cracking. That was the old Tree model. Then Duolingo sought to up the ante and proclaim you as "legendary" if you could complete a challenge testing language comprehension. The logic here is sound, Duolingo seeks to align teaching to achieve Common European Framework of Reference (CEFR) for language comprehension. You can evaluate where a learner is on CEFR scale by challenging them through a "Legendary" test.

The problem here is that under the old Tree model, I had almost every preceding level as purple. I had only three more eggs to transform before I had all purple up to my current progress -skill- level. When Duolingo switched to the path, I ended up being purple all the way to Unit 48. However, I'm currently at Unit 53 for my next lesson. Everything prior is supposedly a review. Fortunately I was able to screenshot the open lessons I had in my old Level 4 under the Tree system and I've discovered that lessons I had not covered in the old Tree are now behind my current level. That is, there are material I didn't learn in the levels preceding Unit 53.

Being OCD and competitive, I am compelled to challenge myself and turn Units 49 to 53 purple. This is done at the sacrifice of not studying Unit 53. This was no problem since I used to have two attempts to complete each of the 8 levels in the Unit Level Ups. But now it's a big problem since a single error will cost me gems, gems I need to ensure a healthy stock of streak freezes should I need to take a break or find myself offline for a day or two.

I already pay Duolingo a twice-yearly subscription fee. The new one-shot attempt isn't a motivator. It's a time sink since I now must be hyperdiligent on my keystroke skill rather than focus on retaining the language skill I want to learn. Again, gems mean streak freezes, and keystrokes can cost gems.

The logic behind this change doesn't fit learning behavior. One doesn't learn by encountering barriers. As a university professor, I'm rather familiar with learning science. As a worker and leader behavior scientist, I'm familiar with motivation theory. Duolingo's current change to charge 5 gems to advance in a test is a punishment, not a reward. It's a demotivator.

Whatever learning design team decided to remove the hearts and charge gems needs to learn about motivation theory and unintended consequences.

Whatever business management team decided to remove the hearts and charge gems needs to be lauded for finding a revenue opportunity.

Leadership however, needs to all the great press that was written about Duolingo in their early years. About how their mission was good and laudable. And they need to study companies that drifted away from good and went for the money. Theranos is a good example.

As for me, I need to work hard to not get sucked into trying to get all purple. My reason for jumping onto Duolingo in the first place was to be able to learn a specific language that had eluded me for decades. Duolingo actually taught me this language to a point, and I was advancing through it until the purple levels, which forced me to start all over again.

What I've learned is that I need to change my standards for achievement. Acquire the nuances of the language I'm learning and dismiss the artificial value of purple levels.

I caution others to pay very close attention to whether or not Duolingo today is teaching you a language, or forcing you to be hypercompetitive.

back4morelater
Great Britain

Re: Mission Creep

Post by back4morelater »

So how would you find the money to pay for the staff and other things like server storage that Duo needs to have run?
Having paid for versions of apps, alongside a free version isn't that uncommon, I think I've got at least 6 others on various devices.

After 2127 days, I've also seen a lot of changes, some I like, like the Crowns to give more levels of learning and to lead you through from recognising a few words in your target language to writing in it. And others like hearts that while I see the point of them, I don't care much for them so have switched them off by creating a classroom for myself. I've yet to see the new path which is undoubtedly Duo's enforcement of spaced repetition whether you like it or not.

I feel that the competitive element is just one of the ways that Duo is trying to encourage people to keep going. So maybe for some the urge to win their league, win whatever the latest contest is, is the motivation that they need to keep coming back.
Personal, having won the diamond league I decided I'd had enough and made my profile private. Been there, done that and now can't be bothered. And maybe a high five/pat on the back makes people feel better and encourages them. Duo is trying to make this platform work for a lot of different people and some things will appeal to some and not to others.

As for streaks - they've crept in to other things, even my Kindle app tells me my current reading streak!
I also haven't spent a gem or a lingot in months seeing as I don't care about legendary or anything that else that is currently available to spend them on.

At the end of the day, Duo tried to do a lot of things for a lot of different people and you have to decide which bit you want, how to make it work for you or even whether it's the right platform for you

Rickiefl
Scotland

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Rickiefl »

[quote=back4morelater post_id=36164 time=1668189592 user_id=

Personal, having won the diamond league I decided I'd had enough and made my profile private. Been there, done that and now can't be bothered.
Me too!

Native: British 🇬🇧 Scottish. Learning: French 🇫🇷,German 🇩🇪,Spanish 🇪🇸

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buho

Re: Mission Creep

Post by buho »

almost every for-profit corporation starts with a lofty moral ambition(see Google's don't be evil) which they abandon halfway. I can't recall any for-profit entity that doesn't end up like that.

the hearts being no longer available doesn't affect normal lessons, right? if so, you can just do normal lessons

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Gentianopsis
Czech Republic

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Gentianopsis »

BizProf wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:35 am

But every now and then I do find myself getting to the top of a league, which means that I earn gems.

When I was starting with Duolingo this January, I found somewhere, that I will earn tens of lingots/gems for each winning in the league, and that higher league = higher reward for winning. That was a good motivation (lingots/gems are necessary for legendary level), but when I won the Diamond (the highest) league, I received only 10 lingots (5 for the 2nd place and 3 for the 3rd place in the Diamond league). So little!!! It makes no sense to go after XP's then, if you get much more lingots just for doing your lessons daily and having your streak long. :-(

Was there any change in lingot/gem rewards for winning leagues after the "one path" was installed? How much lingots/gems have you got for winning?

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Corinnebelle

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Corinnebelle »

[mention]Gentianopsis[/mention] Lingots for leagues was canceled while still on the Doulingo forum I believe.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

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Stasia
Poland

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Stasia »

Corinnebelle wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:18 am

@Gentianopsis Lingots for leagues was canceled while still on the Doulingo forum I believe.

I still get gems (Android equivalent of lingots) for getting in the top three, and I still hang on to the tree on the app, yay!

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

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LICA98
Finland

Re: Mission Creep

Post by LICA98 »

is it just now that you noticed 😂 it's been going that way for like 6 years at least (probably even longer than that)

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LICA98
Finland

Re: Mission Creep

Post by LICA98 »

back4morelater wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:59 pm

So how would you find the money to pay for the staff and other things like server storage that Duo needs to have run?
Having paid for versions of apps, alongside a free version isn't that uncommon, I think I've got at least 6 others on various devices.

well you could have more ads and not add the cartoons and animations crap

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LICA98
Finland

Re: Mission Creep

Post by LICA98 »

Stasia wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:05 am
Corinnebelle wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:18 am

@Gentianopsis Lingots for leagues was canceled while still on the Doulingo forum I believe.

I still get gems (Android equivalent of lingots) for getting in the top three, and I still hang on to the tree on the app, yay!

I just cloned the app so that I have the old one (where you get lingots for completing your daily goal) and the new one at once :)

luciennet
France

Re: Mission Creep

Post by luciennet »

Everything I do on duolingo is free and all the core features are free. This meets the mission.

However duolingo as an organisation can’t function without an income. Hundreds (maybe thousands?) of people work at duolingo to make this app, and they all need a salary the same as you an me to pay their bills. Thus of course they need to create revenue to pay for the development and maintenance of the product most people use for free.

Gems are not “precious” - i accumulate them far more quickly than I spend them, I have over 1000 gems, and if I do decide to “buy” something it is with this in game currently rather than real money. Complaining about spending in game currency is like complaining that my landlord wants me to give them part of my salary (I worked hard for that salary, why should I have to use it to pay for anything?… except that is exactly what my salary is for, to pay for the things I need).

As far as individual features (like how many hearts have to get something right)… these things get tried out from time to time with A\B tests… bad features get shelved, good features get adopted. This is the process to find out what works - try something new, test it, learn from it, iterate.

I get that with OCD life can be difficult and how duolingo works might not be a good match for you. So pick a different language learning tool that is more traditional, predictable, doesn’t change as much. There are plenty of other options.

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BizProf
United States of America

Re: Mission Creep

Post by BizProf »

Wow. I should check into this forum more often! I received a few responses since my irate post.
Yes. One needs operating capital to pay all the folks. However the model changed after Duolingo became public (NASDAQ: DUOL, opened at $136 today). Beside an outlay for operations, Duolingo needs to increase its shareholder value. That means cutting out expenses that reduce its stock value. This is very likely why all of the courses outside of the app and webpage are gone. I suspect the podcast will eventually go, too, as the company focuses on its core: the language app.
Yes, I read that for some, lingots, gems and such are not important, but they're important to me since like all humans, I just need a day off. I use those items to buy streak freezes.
So, that's the monetary side of Duolingo: selling subscriptions, extra gems to buy additional time for challenges, dropping the in-person classes. The other side it the new "path" in place of the "tree". The path still sucks and sucks even more since it's based on exposure and experience. That's fine for some people, but there are folks like me who rely on grammar rules. Take, for example... uh... this post. Duolingo's path really cut back on grammar lessons. There are rules I'm violating, but I don't know why I'm violating them. In the old tree I could right click a quick lesson about the structure, albeit a limited grammar lesson. But the lesson provided more insight on my something is "a la" rather than "au" (that, by the way is just an example, if you attempt to tell me why this rule, I'll know you didn't read this post).
So, I'm just kinda clunking along in Duolingo for now. Maybe something will improve, but improvements from now on must please stockholders rather than encourage successful learning.

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SweNedGuy
Belgium

Re: Mission Creep

Post by SweNedGuy »

People tend to stick to their habits, whether good or bad. The DL app is chosen for convenience, rather than the website version. The app adds gamification features boosting your XP earnings. You get gems... but are evicted after you run out of hearts for the day.

On the website there are no hearts for the bulk of lessons. Only the legendary challenges come with 3 hearts. You get 20 XP for getting half way and 40 XP if you finish the challenge before running out of hearts.

The website has little or no publicity, you can open https://duome.eu/tips in another window and check the grammar explanations stored from the skills when the tree was still around. There are plenty of on-line dictionaries and conjugation tables helping you out. Obviously google translate will often put you on the wrong track. Rather than noticing an error and not knowing why it is not correct, explanations come from outside DuoLingo.

Most useful interactive features (events/classes) have been removed from DuoLingo since January 18. If you value those above all, looking for an alternative for DuoLingo is paramount. There are some decent YT videos benchmarking language apps. You find some on this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=9959-language-app-bench ... mark#p9959

Paying for a well developed and more instructive language app is a better idea than paying for a flawed one, stripped of all features that used to make it worthwhile.

Speaking :netherlands: :fr: :uk: :es: Learning :de:(B2-) :it:(B1) Image :sweden: :portugal: Image (A)

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Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

I noticed that the mobile tips on the other www.duome.eu/notes/ page aren't very complete for French and Spanish (both from English) and the CEFR course English from Portuguese was also missing.

Here is another copied (staff) mobile tips resource from the old tree design:

https://duo-tips.pages.dev/

I have opened a new thread here: viewtopic.php?t=10032

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

ARCANA-MVSA
United States of America

Re: Mission Creep

Post by ARCANA-MVSA »

That became obvious to me over the course of my time at Duolingo, but it took me a good while to fully process and eventually act on it. Nice to know it has a name.

Time is money, and I'm not interested in giving it to a product so determined to be inferior. Still currently hunting for better options (focusing mainly on Czech now), but as I do believe I've found some, I can safely say that Duolingo likely won't be missed in the end.

Oh well. Happy learning, anyway!

Libavka tavda valdyavisveltsinvok

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BizProf
United States of America

Re: Mission Creep

Post by BizProf »

Thanks for saving those tips! Word in other DL Forum threads is that DL is removing the Guidebooks and replacing them with AI. I did read an announcement from DL about that. I suspect those posting the change are among DL's tendency to test changes in the wild. Saving the guidebooks is great! Again. Thanks!

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Corinnebelle

Re: Mission Creep

Post by Corinnebelle »

@BizProf I moved this to our recently created Duolingo section.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

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