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[ARCHIVE] Ordering the Czech clitics: Intermediate [2020-05-04]

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Fnirk1
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[ARCHIVE] Ordering the Czech clitics: Intermediate [2020-05-04]

Post by Fnirk1 »

Originally posted by: nueby https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/38369227


Recently I shared [an introductory post on how to order the clitic cluster in the Czech sentence. (If the words "clitic cluster" mean nothing to you, it would be a good idea to go there first.) In that post, the simplified formula for the cluster was

AUX < REFL < DAT < ACC < TO

where

  • AUX = the conditional or past auxiliary form of “být“ [constant clitics]
  • REFL = se, si, ses, sis [constant clitics]
  • DAT = dative personal pronouns: mi, (mně), ti, mu, (jí), (nám), (vám), (jim) [inconstant clitics listed in (parentheses), the rest constant]
  • ACC = accusative personal pronouns: (mě), (mne), tě, ho, (jej), (ji), (je), (nás), (vás) [inconstant clitics listed in (parentheses), the rest constant]
  • TO = nominative or accusative independent pronoun "to" [inconstant clitic, but typically shows up as a clitic]

The most complicated example included in the initial post was

  • Podařilo by se mi vás to naučit. (I would succeed in teaching it to you.)

which managed to show all five clitic types in the same cluster. Any deviation from the ordering of "by se mi vás to" in that sentence (when starting with either "podařilo" or "naučit" and ending with the other one) would be an error.


Extended Cluster Formula

We need to extend our formula even just to cover the vocabulary that shows up in our course. If we do the full extension in one fell swoop while keeping track of where the simplified formula pieces end up, we get:


***-LI < ***AUX ***/ BE < REFL < DAT < ACC / GEN < TO < FRINGE***


The forward slashes mean that the order between the two clitic types on either side of the slash does not matter or is inapplicable. We will need a lot of notes to explain the rest of it:

  • -LI--rigid, conjunction -li or -lis if it has the auxiliary glued to it; Chceš-li se naučit česky, musíš se snažit.
  • AUX--rigid, form of conditional/past auxiliary být: jsem, jsi, jsme, jste, bych, bys, by, bychom, and byste; Chtěli bychom se naučit česky. Vážila jsem si ho.
  • BE--free, positive present form of copula být: (jsem), (jsi), (je), (jsme), (jste), and (jsou); Nakonec je ti ho líto. Nakonec ti je ho líto.
  • REFL--rigid, clitic reflexives: se, si, ses, and sis; Proč bych se učil česky? Nevážila sis ho.
  • DAT--rigid; short dative pronoun: mi, (mně), ti, mu, (), (nám), (vá1m), and (jim); Řekl jsem ti o tom. Bála by ses mu ji dát?
  • ACC--rigid, short accusative pronoun: (), (mne), , ho, (jej), (ji), (je), (ná1s), and (vás); Báli jsme se mu ho dát.
  • GEN--preferred, short genitive pronoun: (), (mne), , ho, (jej), (), (nás), (vás), and (jich); Vážila bych si **tě ** víc.
  • TO--rigid, inconstant clitic nominative/accusative independent neuter pronoun: (to);Ještě jsem mu to tam nevrátil. Ukradl jsem mu touž dvakrát.
  • FRINGE--preferred, other inconstant clitics, incl. (ale), (asi), (prý), (sem), (snad), (tam), (tedy), (teď), (tady), (tu), (), (však)), subject (nominative) and instrumental personal pronouns, and pronouns with prepositions; To se ti tu ale prý už asi dělat nechce. Takový dárek bych mu tam snad já neposílala. On se tedy o ni už však zaj\u00edmat nebude.

More explanations below, including the meaning of "rigid", "preferred", and "free".


General notes

The clitics that are not always clitics in the uses considered are shown in parentheses like (this). These inconstant clitics can appear as regular words outside the clitic cluster, but when they are clitics, they follow the cluster order rules/preferences as if they were constant clitics.

Note the indication of flexibility of position, which ranges from "rigid" to "preferred" to "free". We had to do this because of including clitics that can move around the cluster:

  • The "rigid" items are shown in the positions that you should not deviate from. (This matches how our simplified formula worked.)
  • The "preferred" items are shown in the positions we suggest as preferred. They can often move around to some extent, but students should start by placing them where shown. To deal with detailed constraints would be hopeless.
  • The "free" items can (usually) move around the entire cluster from beginning to end. We are showing them mostly to remind our students that these items are clitics, and we are showing them in the particular location to give our students a fair and reliable starting point.

Let's deal with the clitics that we did not discuss in the intro post now.


-LI: Conjunction -li

The conjunction -li (-lis) differs from all the other clitics in that it can normally only attach to the first word rather than the first clause constituent (completed part of the sentence), the first word should be a conjugated verb (“vzpomeneš“), past participle (“vzpomněla”), or the particle “ne”, and it keeps the hyphen. This clitic is a very formal word, and our beginner students can ignore it. (The rest of the clitic types in the extended formula are important even at the A1 level.)

  • Vzpomenete-li si na mě, budu rád. (If you remember me, I will be glad.)

If you do not want to start with the verb, use the non-clitic variant of this conjunction:

  • Jestli si na mě vzpomenete, budu rád.

And the three words that do not count in the first position (a, i, ale) still do not count:

  • Ale vzpomněla-li byste si na mne, byl bych šťastný. Ne-li, stejně se to nedozvím. (If you remembered me, I would be happy. If not, I am not going to know anyway.)

BE: Positive present forms of copula "být"

The positive present copula (linking verb saying something \"is\" something) BE forms are free inconstant clitics we deal with very often. These can go anywhere in the cluster, so the trickiest part is to figure out whether the positive present form of the verb “být” is a free roaming copula as in

  • Protože mu jste to schopni vysvětlit. (Because you are able to explain it to him.) [We show "jste" mid-cluster to demonstrate the freedom of its movement.]

or a rigidly placed past-tense auxiliary as in

  • Protože jste mu to vysvětlili. (Because you explained it to him.)
  • ???Protože mu jste to vysvětlili. [This would be DAT before AUX, a no-no.]

Because the third-person past tense has no auxiliary, only the first and second person forms can be tricky, and the very common forms je and jsou are automatically inconstant rather than constant clitics.

Also remember that the past or negative copula are not clitics:

  • ???Kateřině bylo ho líto. (Kateřina felt sorry for him.) [No good, we have a non-clitic in second position and a constant clitic in third.]
  • ???Protože nejste mu to schopni vysvětlit. (Because you are not able to explain it to him.) [No good, we have a non-clitic in second position and a constant clitic in third.]

GEN: Genitive pronouns

The GEN short genitive pronouns go after the short dative pronouns and before the nominative/accusative "to". Simple examples:

  • Ty ses nezeptal. (You did not ask her.)\n+ Dali mu ho málo. (They did not give him enough of it.) [Here "ho" is a genitive governed by "málo" and points to something masculine or neuter that can be measured by amounts, like "čas" (time) or "mléko" (milk).]

Only a few Czech verbs take genitive objects (bát se, vážit si, dotýkat se), but many non-verb constructions do involve genitive clitics.

Varied opinions exist on where genitive clitics must/should go relative to accusative clitics, or even whether allowing both in one cluster is OK. We suggest placing GEN after ACC as the safest bet:

  • Já jsem ho **jí ** naučil polovinu. (I taught him half of it.)

The verb učit/naučit is a rare Czech verb that can take two accusative objects. The first is the recipient of the teaching ("ho"), and the second is the skill being taught ("polovinu"). The genitive ("jí") comes from the noun of indefinite quantity "polovina" (half) and refers to something of feminine gender in Czech that can be both taught and split into portions, like “báseň” (a poem). Some native speakers would prefer to swap the accusative with the genitive here, and others would object to combining these two cases of clitics in one cluster in the first place.

Be mindful that to order the cluster correctly, you have to keep track of which case each pronoun is. It is not always easy because you have to know which word governs (is grammatically connected with) the pronoun. While the “ho jí” sequence is fine as ACC before GEN we had above, it would be wrong in

  • ???Já bych ho jí nedávala. (I would not give it to her.)

because “jí“ is a dative form there. Either put the dative ahead of the accusative inside the cluster, or move it out entirely (as an inconstant clitic, “jí“ can be used as a regular word).

A possibly interesting sidebar now, which I will set off as a quote:

Some of the morphologically identical short pronouns of different cases create awkward situations in which even a technically correct cluster would sound so goofy that natives tend to avoid constructing it and likely shudder just reading it:

  • ???líbil jsem jí jí polovinu. (I promised her half of it.) [Dative followed by genitive.]

Here “it” is a divisible object or substance amount of feminine gender, maybe “káva”, coffee. Regular native speakers tend to object to the stuttering effect of “jí jí“and experts to allowing multiple morphologically identical clitics from different governors in the same cluster.

  • ???Já jsem ho ho učil pomalu. (I was teaching it to him slowly.) [Two accusatives.]

This is an even more cacophonous and shudder-inducing extreme, even if technically somewhat more acceptable because the governor is the same.

We recommend against duplicating morphologically identical pronouns in the same cluster whatever their governor(s).


FRINGE: The rest of the clitics

The FRINGE is the wild right-hand frontier of the cluster. Various inconstant clitics may belong there, or these words and phrases may like to hang out just to the right of the known clitics.

The great thing is that when more of these show up, it does not seem to matter much how they get ordered within the fringe. Some of these fringe clitics work quite well even at the beginning of the cluster, and some can even go mid-cluster. For example, (already, yet, never again) feels a bit awkward only mid-cluster:

  • Já 1 jsem jim o tom **už **říkal. Já 1 už ** jsem jim o tom říkal. (I have already told them about it.)\n\nInstrumental pronouns** also work well in the fringe, although isolated sentence examples with clusters tend to feel torn out of context because of all the pronouns:

  • František nám ho **tím ** pomohl naj\u00edt. (František helped us find him/it through--by means of--that.)

  • Já jsem jí to jimi vysvětlit nezkoušel. (I was not trying to explain it to her by them.)[Here "jimi" could refer to "slovy" (words).]

Pronouns with prepositions may be viewed as belonging in the fringe. The advantage of doing so is that our students may feel more confident in placing these at the end of the cluster without worrying about mutually ordering them with other fringe items, while simultaneously avoiding unnatural placements:

  • Potom jsem se **o ně ** už nezajímal. (After that I was no longer interested in them/it.)
  • ?Potom jsem se už nezajímal **o ně **. [Marginal. For inconstant clitics the final placement is usually possible but puts way too much weight on "o ně" here, unless that is the point of the entire statement, as if it were to continue \"...but I became interested in you\".]
  • O ně jsem se už potom nezajímal. [OK. The initial placement is much less conspicuous than the final one. We know for sure whatever "they" are was mentioned before because we just used the pronoun, and things mentioned before have a welcoming home at the start of the clause.]
  • On jí to o nich ale asi neřekl. (But he probably did not tell her that about them.)
  • ?On jí to ale asi neřekl o nich. [The final placement probably implies what was not intended unless we want to continue \"...but about someone else\".]
  • O nich on jí to ale asi neřekl. [OK.]
  • Stěžovali i si mu **nás ** už dvakrát. (They have already complained to him twice about us.)
  • ?Stěžovali si mu už dvakrát nás. [...not about the people who were actually responsible.]
  • Nás si mu stěžovali už dvakrát. [OK.]

Other fringe clitics we currently have in the course include ale (but), asi (probably), tam ("there", both as a place and as a destination), **teď ** (now), tady and tu (both \"here\" as a place), sem ("here" as a destination), and **už ** ("already" in positive contexts, "not any more" or "never" in negative ones, "yet" in questions). We may classify more words as fringe clitics to encourage our students to place them in the right spot and avoid implying contrasts unwittingly by copying the English word order.

  • Tohle jsi **sem ale asi už ** nosit nemusel. (But you probably did not have to bring this here anymore.)

Nominative pronouns can sometimes also act as fringe clitics and roam around the entire cluster:

  • Na to bych si **já ** nevzpomněla. (I would not remember that./That I would not remember. could also be
  • Na to bych **já ** si nevzpomněla.
  • Na to **já ** bych si nevzpomněla.

and those are just the clitic positions. As (unreliably) inconstant clitics, subject pronouns can often move around the entire clause like regular words:

  • **já ** bych si na to nevzpomněla.
  • Nevzpomněla bych si na to **já **.

A complication with subject pronouns is that they sometimes lose their inconstant clitic abilities entirely and act as obligatorily non-clitic, regular words:

  • ???Nevzpomněla bych **jjá ** si na to.
  • ???Pořád ona ho miluje.
  • Ona ho Pořád miluje.

The interference with the placement flexibility for the subject pronouns relates to their optional nature in Czech. Since we can just drop them, by choosing to include them we sometimes give them enough focus to prevent some of the placements.

Our learners may want to start by actively using subject pronouns only as regular (non-clitic) words until they develop a "feel" for them as clitics.

With one exception below, we will not try dealing with interaction rules for the stuff inside the FRINGE. The membership is fluid and the possible interactions too numerous to consider. Let's instead enjoy the simplicity offered by placing these objects to the right of TO without regard for their mutual ordering, should we end up with more than one of them per cluster.

The small exception is tu (an alternative to tady, both meaning "here" as a place). When tu shows up in the cluster, it is often best for it to lead the FRINGE. Letting other fringe members get ahead of tu can upset the easy flow of the cluster:

  • Chtěl jsem ti tu/tady o tom říct. (I wanted to tell you about it here.)
  • ?Chtěl jsem ti o tom tu říct. [Feels off, marginal at best.]
  • Chtěl jsem ti o tom tady říct. [OK.]

Next up


With that, we have reasonably completed our coverage of ordering the clusters of clitics that show up in the course. With the extended cluster formula, we are loaded for all kinds of bear in terms of grammar complexity.

Our next step on the clitic side would need to address when and how the clitics migrate to the same cluster when they may be associated with multiple syntactic governors, which (as regular words) may themselves move around the sentence for various reasons.

But we cannot go there without first addressing the issue of moving the regular words around the sentence and the various reasons for doing so. The Czech word order outside of the clitic cluster is now holding us back.

We will need to suspend exploring sentences like

  • Najít by se jí ho snažil pomoct František.

until we have covered

  • Jablka koupil František.

including when it would be chosen in preference to

  • František koupil jablka.
  • František jablka koupil.
  • Jablka František koupil.

and why two of the six possible orderings are no good:

  • ???Koupil František jablka.
  • ???Koupil jablka František.

Other than the clitics, the Czech word order is supposed to be free, right?

Not really, unless you are OK about sounding confused or worse. And that will be our next word order topic

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