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δε/δεν, τη/την

Cifi

δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by Cifi »

A little while ago, I came across δε for the first time on Duolingo. I managed to find an explanation (it may have been this or another one, I think it has been asked and answered more than once):

the final ν is retained before vowels and the following consonants/combinations: π, κ, τ, ψ, ξ, μπ, ντ, γκ, τσ, τζ.

(https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/48250654/), but I still had no idea what makes these consonants being treated differently from the rest, so I was happy to find more explanation about it:

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... ν.2664524/

They call those that would drop the ν "continuant consonants", and I think I can understand the difference now.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

Cifi

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by Cifi »

I found something to apply these rules, and it worked out quite well:

http://greek.pgeorgalas.gr/MultipleThThnSet.asp

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

Cifi

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by Cifi »

In skill "Phrases", there are both "Δε μένω στην Ασία" (which is in accordance with the above rules) and "Δεν μένω στην Ασία" and I don't know what to make of it? An error? Some exception I don't know about?

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/46183352/
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/46450865/

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

O.Zoe
Greece

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by O.Zoe »

The sentences in the previous Tree didn't follow the final -ν rule, so only δεν was used. Δε wasn't even a lexeme, I think. It was added in a later Tree update, but all sentences had to be edited one by one. "Δεν μένω στην Ασία" is the older version; "Δε μένω στην Ασία" is the current version. Did you have both of them as exercises? Probably, someone forgot to delete the old version. 😇

The final -ν rule is not an important rule. There are native Greeks who don't even know this rule exists and there are some who simply ignore it. In real life, no one will tell you anything if you keep -ν everywhere. The mistake would be to drop it when it's needed. On Duolingo, they decided to comply with what school grammar says. To be honest, I started following this rule when I started helping on Duolingo, so that I won't confuse learners. Before, I would never write "δε".

Especially for the negation δεν, some people always keep the -ν so that there won't be any ambiguity with the particle δε that has a totally different function. Someone mentioned it on the Word Reference discussion you posted about; "The negative particles δεν and μην also follow the same rule (δεν ήρθε, δε θέλει, μην έρθεις, μη φύγεις), but it is advisable to systematically keep the finl ν in δεν to avoid confusion with the unrelated particle δε."

🇬🇷 N :gb: C1 :de: B1 :it: A1

Cifi

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by Cifi »

I overlooked it in the discussion, but this is valuable information. I'll stay with δεν then.

But the distinction between τη and την is more common, do I get this right? Would you recommend learners to follow it?

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

O.Zoe
Greece

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by O.Zoe »

I would recommend that you follow the rule, but have in mind that many native Greeks will not. It's not a big deal. In case you don't want to bother remembering which consonants retain the -ν, remember that it's preferable to always keep it instead of dropping it when you shouldn't (e.g. in front of vowels).

Also, have in mind that on Duolingo, you need to follow the rule for "type what you hear" exercises. For the specific type of exercise, the system expects the exact default sentence - no alternative spellings.

🇬🇷 N :gb: C1 :de: B1 :it: A1

User avatar
araxnaki
Greece

Re: δε/δεν, τη/την

Post by araxnaki »

It's true, most Greeks do not know the rule for -ν and use it (or drop it) instinctively. To make things even worse, linguists cannot agree on the rules. Do we always keep it on δεν in order to avoid the extremely rare occasion of confusing it with δε, or follow the «την» rule?
Don't bother. Just use it always (except the neuter gender).

Native 🇬🇷
Speaking 🇬🇧
Learning 🇪🇸
Hoping to continue with 🇷🇺 🇫🇮

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