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Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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Corinnebelle

Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Post by Corinnebelle »

Why is it that words like מַיִם and יַיִן are transliterated as yayin and mayim but are pronounced like yine and mime? I understand there is some sort of a there _ a [patach] sound in the word, but I guess the rule is that יִ_ makes a long ī sound. Is the _ a [patach] sound there in some sort of inflection of how you pronounce the word, or is it just the יִ_ together [patach before yod with chiriq] makes a long ī sound?

The other interesting thing with transliteration, is like talmidim sounds more like talmideem with a long ē as the last vowel. I suppose the "i" is like the "i" in him and not like the "i" in hit. Is this the best way to pronounce chiriq? It isn't exactly a long ē sound like heme as in heme iron but "i" like in him?

Have any native speakers tried the Hebrew characters? Do they correctly represent the Hebrew letters and nikud?

One thing I should note, "ei" is used to represent .. [tsere].

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Post by EranBarLev »

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

Why is it that words like מַיִם and יַיִן are transliterated as yayin and mayim but are pronounced like yine and mime?

What's the pronunciation difference between "yayin" and "yine" or "mayim" and "mime"? :?

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

I understand there is some sort of a there _ a [patach] sound in the word, but I guess the rule is that יִ_ makes a long ī sound. Is the _ a [patach] sound there in some sort of inflection of how you pronounce the word, or is it just the יִ_ together [patach before yod with chiriq] makes a long ī sound?

There is no such rule. Any niqqud in the Yud means that the Yud is a consonant, and therefore it's transliterated as Y. So יִ is transliterated as "yi", regardless of the Patakh before it.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

The other interesting thing with transliteration, is like talmidim sounds more like talmideem with a long ē as the last vowel. I suppose the "i" is like the "i" in him and not like the "i" in hit. Is this the best way to pronounce chiriq? It isn't exactly a long ē sound like heme as in heme iron but "i" like in him?

The "i" sound in him or hit doesn't exist in Hebrew, and I'm sorry but I can't hear the difference between them. I don't know the word "heme" so I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's the same as in "theme" then yes, that's the sound of the Khiriq.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

Have any native speakers tried the Hebrew characters? Do they correctly represent the Hebrew letters and nikud?

You mean the א symbol at the top of the main page? I have, but I didn't complete it. What I've done sounds correct, except for the last vowel אַי - ai which for some reason is incorrectly pronounced as "ya". Also אְ (second row of vowels on the left) doesn't really exist - the glottal consonants אהע can't get a shva.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

One thing I should note, "ei" is used to represent .. [tsere].

Tsere is pronounced "ei" in the Ashkenazi pronunciation. Most native speakers pronounce it as just "e" as in "there" or "them". When there's a Yud after the Tsere, most native speakers pronounce it, except in Mizrahi pronunciation.

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Corinnebelle

Re: Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Post by Corinnebelle »

What's the pronunciation difference between "yayin" and "yine" or "mayim" and "mime"?

To mā-yin and mīme sound different. I know transliteration isn't exactly how things sound. It goes by what letter was assigned to what letter in a different alphabet.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 am

I understand there is some sort of a there _ a [patach] sound in the word, but I guess the rule is that יִ_ makes a long ī sound. Is the _ a [patach] sound there in some sort of inflection of how you pronounce the word, or is it just the יִ_ together [patach before yod with chiriq] makes a long ī sound?

There is no such rule. Any niqqud in the Yud means that the Yud is a consonant, and therefore it's transliterated as Y. So יִ is transliterated as "yi", regardless of the Patakh before it.

So why does לַיְלָה sound like lī-lah to me? Does that long ī only appear sometimes, and it is not consistent, but must be learned per word, or is my pronunciation wrong?

The "i" sound in him or hit doesn't exist in Hebrew, and I'm sorry but I can't hear the difference between them. I don't know the word "heme" so I don't know how it's pronounced. If it's the same as in "theme" then yes, that's the sound of the Khiriq.

There are two pronunciation for him (UK, US) enPR: hĭm, IPA(key): /ˈhɪm/, unstressed IPA(key): /əm/, [ɪ̈m] One is the same as /hɪt/ for the vowel, the other is different. I think I must use the second one. Yes, them and heme rhyme. So they use "i" in transliteration to represent ē.

You mean the א symbol at the top of the main page? I have, but I didn't complete it. What I've done sounds correct, except for the last vowel אַי - ai which for some reason is incorrectly pronounced as "ya". Also אְ (second row of vowels on the left) doesn't really exist - the glottal consonants אהע can't get a shva.

Yes. Good to know! According to this they use א as a carrier letter. It would be good if they have tips and notes for the characters and made them correct.

Tsere is pronounced "ei" in the Ashkenazi pronunciation. Most native speakers pronounce it as just "e" as in "there" or "them". When there's a Yud after the Tsere, most native speakers pronounce it, except in Mizrahi pronunciation.

Which ei do you mean? "Ei" in veil or "ei" in height, it can also be pronounced as in either, heifer or ceiling. I know, English is complicated! Them and there have a multitude of pronunciations depending on your location and whether it is stressed or not. As far as I know tsere is a long ā sound, but it sounds like that depends the dialect of Hebrew to how it is pronounced.

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Post by EranBarLev »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:17 am

There is no such rule. Any niqqud in the Yud means that the Yud is a consonant, and therefore it's transliterated as Y. So יִ is transliterated as "yi", regardless of the Patakh before it.

So why does לַיְלָה sound like lī-lah to me? Does that long ī only appear sometimes, and it is not consistent, but must be learned per word, or is my pronunciation wrong?

יְ is again a consonant because it has niqqud, so it's transliterated as Y, this time with no vowel after it because it's a shva. So it's "layla". I don't understand what you mean by "long ī". This word has no "i" sound. It has 2 vowels and both of them are "a" as in "far" or "car" or "father".
The ה is a vowel here, so it's not pronounced and shouldn't be transliterated as H.

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:17 am

Tsere is pronounced "ei" in the Ashkenazi pronunciation. Most native speakers pronounce it as just "e" as in "there" or "them". When there's a Yud after the Tsere, most native speakers pronounce it, except in Mizrahi pronunciation.

Which ei do you mean? "Ei" in veil or "ei" in height, it can also be pronounced as in either, heifer or ceiling.

I mean "ei" as in "veil". Sorry for the confusion.

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:17 am

Them and there have a multitude of pronunciations depending on your location and whether it is stressed or not.

OK, I was thinking about the 1st "them" audio and the 2nd "there" audio for the sound of tsere. Again sorry for the confusion.

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:17 am

As far as I know tsere is a long ā sound, but it sounds like that depends the dialect of Hebrew to how it is pronounced.

Again I don't understand what you mean by "long ā sound" :(

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Corinnebelle

Re: Transliteration and Duolingo characters

Post by Corinnebelle »

I mean "ei" as in "veil". Sorry for the confusion.

"ei" in this instance is a long ā sound. Same as in mate, wait or day.

At least Hebrew isn't too complicated once you learn it.

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