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Translator Jumble

User avatar
Explorer
Portugal

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Explorer »

Stasia wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:06 pm
Explorer wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:19 am

In Castilian Spanish, diminutives do not necessarily refer to the size of things. They can also be used to express that you really like to do something.

For example in this sentence: me tomaría una cervecita. Here I'm not saying that I want a small beer. I'm saying that I really like beer, and would probably have a good pint!

That's interesting, because when I went to Spain with my very Bolivian way of speaking, I was perceived as "childish" for "abusing" the diminutives. Hence, I assumed that this use of diminutives was resticted to the Andes. :lol:

Well, in the ears of Castilian speakers, some American varieties do seem to "overuse" diminutives. Words like ahorita, ahoritita, tantito, etc. are not common in Spain.

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John238922
Australia

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by John238922 »

Stasia wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:36 am
John238922 wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:52 am

Hey, @Stasia , English has diminutives, often the 'y' or 'ie' suffix: 'matey, 'dearie', 'piggy', 'Freddy', just not consistently.

That translation could be, with a Victorian or Edwardian tone a 'coffee -ette', or more modernly a 'mini-coffee', or hipsterly, a 'piccolo'.

8-) Great suggestions! Since you are doing a diachronic comparison, let me make a synchronic one as well: none of the above would be the correct translation of the Andean Spanish cafecito. In the Andes, diminutives are very abundant in every day speech... so cafecito is just coffee, desayunito is simply breakfast, pancito is bread of no particular size restriction, etc, etc. :D

While I remember the Andean spirit and the Andean flags flying around Cusco, and gazing towards the tres fronteras from Atacama, I never got to La Paz, and am unlikely to go back to the Andes.

Nevertheless I'm interested.

Do you mean that the ordinary words, cafe, desayuno, pan, aren't used, or are the alternatives random or can you give an example of how each might be used with a different shade of meaning?

John238922
Australia

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by John238922 »

Stasia wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:36 am
John238922 wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:52 am

Hey, @Stasia , English has diminutives, often the 'y' or 'ie' suffix: 'matey, 'dearie', 'piggy', 'Freddy', just not consistently.

That translation could be, with a Victorian or Edwardian tone a 'coffee -ette', or more modernly a 'mini-coffee', or hipsterly, a 'piccolo'.

8-) Great suggestions! Since you are doing a diachronic comparison, let me make a synchronic one as well: none of the above would be the correct translation of the Andean Spanish cafecito. In the Andes, diminutives are very abundant in every day speech... so cafecito is just coffee, desayunito is simply breakfast, pancito is bread of no particular size restriction, etc, etc. :D

Colloquial Australian English is notorious for dropping the endings of words and adding 'o' or 'y'.

Hence, 'arvo' for 'afternoon', relevantly, 'brekky' for 'breakfast', and after five I might have a little 'rummo' with coke, that could actually be quite a large rum.

Is it useful to distinguish between a 'true ' diminutive, connoting smaller, younger, or lesser in status, and the other similar forms we're talking about that don't really have that connotation?

User avatar
Stasia
Poland

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Stasia »

Explorer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:27 am

Well, in the ears of Castilian speakers, some American varieties do seem to "overuse" diminutives. Words like ahorita, ahoritita, tantito, etc. are not common in Spain.

¿Poquitito? :)

I learned the hard way that "acasito nomas" usually means a long walk away! :lol:

John238922 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:57 am

While I remember the Andean spirit and the Andean flags flying around Cusco, and gazing towards the tres fronteras from Atacama, I never got to La Paz, and am unlikely to go back to the Andes.

Nevertheless I'm interested.

Do you mean that the ordinary words, cafe, desayuno, pan, aren't used, or are the alternatives random or can you give an example of how each might be used with a different shade of meaning?

You can use them, but they sound "harsh"/unfriendly. I suppose I use them in a very formal setting when I'm meeting some really high-status people whom I never met before. Within 15-20 minutes of the meeting, however, we all inevitably descend into the realm of -itos. :lol:

A bit offtop, but La Paz is a sight worth seeing. With all the pollution and traffic jams, I still think it's one of the most beautiful cities on Earth.

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

Deleted User 1929

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Deleted User 1929 »

I wonder if there’s a 3rd round 🤔

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Cifi wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:54 pm
gmads wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:03 pm

My first option was using "with," and while I may be missing a subtle nuance about its usage, to me it makes the sentence: "your presence will give me life or will kill me with pleasure," sound a bit weird because it makes it seem that it would be the "presence" that would have the pleasure in doing the killing.

For me it is a little bit like "to dance/jump/cry/... with joy", which I think would be "bailar/saltar/llorar... de alegría" or "vor Freude tanzen/hüpfen/weinen/..."

Indeed, great examples, got it now.

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Stasia wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:36 am

In the Andes, diminutives are very abundant in every day speech... so cafecito is just coffee, desayunito is simply breakfast, pancito is bread of no particular size restriction, etc, etc. :D

I don't know how we in Mexico would compare to the Andes, but we are notoriously famous not only for using them but for abusing their use: Te explicamos por qué los mexicanos usamos tantos diminutivos. :D

In our case, it all started with one of our linguistic roots: Nahuatl, which is a language quite rich in diminutives. While we have been critized and laughed at a lot for this (along with our heavy use of the "mande?" politeness formula —among others), I would say that this is also part of what gives Mexicans, in the eyes of many foreigners, especially Anglo-Saxons, the feeling of being warmth people. The psychological reasons may be ancient and deep, but diminutives are to us like oil to an engine: they help to reduce friction and smooth our daily conversations and relationships :)

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Explorer wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:19 am

In Castilian Spanish, diminutives do not necessarily refer to the size of things. They can also be used to express that you really like to do something.

For example in this sentence: me tomaría una cervecita. Here I'm not saying that I want a small beer. I'm saying that I really like beer, and would probably have a good pint!

I would have thought that that would actually be from the use of the "me" pronoun, working here as an affective pronoun (dativo ético). But yes, the diminutive emphasizes the pleasure of having the beer.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Explorer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:27 am

Well, in the ears of Castilian speakers, some American varieties do seem to "overuse" diminutives. Words like ahorita, ahoritita, tantito, etc. are not common in Spain.

Lovely word, "ahorita." Without question, one of our favourite words and one the has made many a foreigner tear their hair out when they take it to be a more precise and immediate version of "ahora," only to realize that for us, it is anything but :!: :D

Only when it is made emphatic by preceding it with, "I meant" AND raising the tone of "ahorita," then it means "in this very precise moment," otherwise... well... it can even mean days.

-- Juanito, la comida ya está lista...
-- Ahorita voy...

-- Quiero decir, ahorita!

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

lama.03 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:17 pm

I wonder if there’s a 3rd round 🤔

Yes... let's start it :)

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
Stasia
Poland

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Stasia »

gmads wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:45 pm

I don't know how we in Mexico would compare to the Andes, but we are notoriously famous not only for using them but for abusing their use: Te explicamos por qué los mexicanos usamos tantos diminutivos. :D

In our case, it all started with one of our linguistic roots: Nahuatl, which is a language quite rich in diminutives.

That's interesting because in the Andean Spanish, the diminutives also come from a native language, Quechua, which is also very rich in diminutives.

I will have to skip one round of translator game - there is a strong chance of electricity shortages in the area where I am currently, between now and next week, and I don't want to keep everyone else waiting just because I have no internet. :D

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Stasia wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:13 pm
gmads wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:45 pm

In our case, it all started with one of our linguistic roots: Nahuatl, which is a language quite rich in diminutives.

That's interesting because in the Andean Spanish, the diminutives also come from a native language, Quechua, which is also very rich in diminutives.

Wow, how wonderful! I didn't know that.

Would you say Quechua language has like warm-feeling words. Is there a word or words of indigenous origin that you like? Can you mention a few that have been assimilated into the Spanish used in Peru or world-wide?

Stasia wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:13 pm

I will have to skip one round of translator game - there is a strong chance of electricity shortages in the area where I am currently, between now and next week, and I don't want to keep everyone else waiting just because I have no internet. :D

Thanks. Duly noted ;)

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Stasia wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:13 pm

I will have to skip one round of translator game - there is a strong chance of electricity shortages in the area where I am currently, between now and next week, and I don't want to keep everyone else waiting just because I have no internet. :D

No, thinking it over... no you cannot :D We do need you. And just to make sure, you will be starting the 3th round :P

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

3th round

This will be the sequence this time:

  • [mention]Stasia[/mention] - English: French
  • [mention]MustafaOuz526752[/mention] - French: English
  • [mention]Cifi[/mention] - English: Spanish
  • [mention]Alivated[/mention] - Spanish: Arabic
  • [mention]Lama.03[/mention] - Arabic: German
  • [mention]Explorer[/mention] - German: Spanish
  • [mention]Gmads[/mention] - Spanish: English
  • @Stasia - English

So, Stasia creates the sentence in English, translates it into French, and sends the French version to MustafaOuz526752... etc.

We still need more participants. It would be great if they spoke Italian or French, and were fluent with another language beside English.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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Cifi

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Cifi »

I should delete Greek from my list as I don't speak it well enough yet. But there's [mention]O.Zoe[/mention] who's native and someone else who's quite advanced.

Lot's of German Spanish learners around who enjoy learning playfully, too, like [mention]Conicita22[/mention], [mention]Frank916855[/mention], [mention]Ursula[/mention], [mention]Dirk858585[/mention]. This might result in more translations back and forth between Spanish in German, but I think it would still be interesting.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

MustafaOuz526752

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by MustafaOuz526752 »

Cifi wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:14 pm

I should delete Greek from my list as I don't speak it well enough yet. But there's O.Zoe who's native

If O.Zoe wishes to participate, I encourage them to also have a hand in Turkish translations :D

O.Zoe
Greece

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by O.Zoe »

MustafaOuz526752 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:55 am
Cifi wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:14 pm

I should delete Greek from my list as I don't speak it well enough yet. But there's O.Zoe who's native

If O.Zoe wishes to participate, I encourage them to also have a hand in Turkish translations :D

Vay vay! I'm afraid I only know "Duolingo Turkish". Your sentences are too advanced for my level. It's a great game, though! If you need any help with Greek, I'll be glad to help!

🇬🇷 N :gb: C1 :de: B1 :it: A1

User avatar
Stasia
Poland

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Stasia »

gmads wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:38 pm

Would you say Quechua language has like warm-feeling words. Is there a word or words of indigenous origin that you like?

Right at the start of a conversation:

Allillanchu ~ loosely translated as "how are you?" but really means "Are you well?"
allin = well, -lla = diminutive suffix, -chu question marker suffix

Urpillay - term of endearment, "mi palomita" ~ "my little dove"
urpi = dove, -lla diminutive, -y possessive suffix (mine)

And you can make it even sweeter:
Urpillachay
-cha is another diminutive :D

Can you mention a few that have been assimilated into the Spanish used in Peru or world-wide?

Off the top of my head...

kuntur -> condor
ch'arki -> jerky
llama -> llama
paqu -> alpaca
papa -> papa (potato)

In Peru and Bolivia:
wawa = child (the same pronunciation as guagua in Central America, but very different meaning!)
chuño (in Southern Peruvian Quechua ch'uño with an explosive ch' sound) = freeze dried potato
watia = a type of earthen oven for cooking vegetables and sometimes meat, very popular in the highlands
as well as many other foods and dishes... I should create a topic on that in our Quechua section. 8-)

Regarding translator game - OK, I will try to use cellphone data if wifi dies. :D

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

Cifi

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Cifi »

The new round was quite hard for me, many options to choose from.

One idea to attract more participants would be to open a new thread for each round, which would have rules and explanations right in the first post.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

User avatar
Stasia
Poland

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Stasia »

Cifi wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:31 pm

The new round was quite hard for me, many options to choose from.

Since I chose the sentence, I intentionally tweaked the rules a bit to make it a bit more interesting. :D Instead of starting with a sentence in English, I actually started with a French saying:

Il ne faut pas vendre la peau de l'ours avant de l'avoir tué.

Which literally means in English: One should not sell the bear skin before killing him. Hence, this literal English translation of a French saying is technically the "original sentence" of this round.

I like this saying because we have an almost identical saying in Polish: Nie dziel skóry na niedźwiedziu = Don't divide up the pelt on a [live] bear.

The final sentence I received is:

Do not count the chickens before they emerge from the egg.

Which is great - this is the English equivalent of the French saying, although I heard it more commonly as "do not count the chickens before they hatch."

So what we got here is a great example of a translation that is not literal, but conveys the actual meaning of the original phrase.

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

User avatar
Explorer
Portugal

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Explorer »

No vendas la piel del oso antes de matarlo is also a Spanish saying, but I thought the change in the translation was too radical and I chose to stick with the chickens. That was funny :D

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Cifi

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Cifi »

When I received the English proverb with the bear, I found that the this one and "don't count your chickens before they hatch" are identical in meaning (I would imagine the latter to be more common in Great Britain, but I'm not sure I actually heard it being said). So I was looking for the best way to express this in Spanish. Actually, I was about to choose "no cantes victoria antes de tiempo", but this is less metaphorical, and in a discussion I found somewhere people from Peru and I think Venezuela stated that the one about chicken would be used in their countries, so I decided to go with that one.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

Cifi

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Cifi »

In German, I'd probably use "man soll den Tag nicht vor dem Abend loben" as a common saying that is quite close in meaning. "Das Fell des Bären verteilen, bevor er erlegt ist" seems to be used, too, but to me it seems less common.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

Cifi

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Cifi »

Btw, when I looked up "Don't sell the skin till you have caught the bear", I learned that its origin is sad to be in a fable written by Lorenzo Astemio, who lived around 1500 (https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10 ... 536-e-1943). So it had a few centuries to distribute around the world.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Translator Jumble game. Third round. Results.


After each username is the sentence she/he received.

  1. Stasia - One should not sell the bear skin before killing him.
  2. MustafaOuz526752 - Il ne faut pas vendre la peau de l'ours avant de l'avoir tué.
  3. Cifi - Don't sell the skin till you have caught the bear.
  4. Alivated - No cuentes los pollos antes de que nazcan.
  5. Lama.03 - لا تعدّ الدجاج قبل أن يفقس.
  6. Explorer - Zähle keine Hühner bevor sie geschlüpft sind.
  7. Gmads - No cuentes los pollos antes de que salgan del huevo.
  8. Stasia - Do not count the chickens before they emerge from the egg.
Last edited by gmads on Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Stasia wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:57 pm
gmads wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:38 pm

Would you say Quechua language has like warm-feeling words. Is there a word or words of indigenous origin that you like?

Right at the start of a conversation:

Allillanchu ~ loosely translated as "how are you?" but really means "Are you well?"
allin = well, -lla = diminutive suffix, -chu question marker suffix

Urpillay - term of endearment, "mi palomita" ~ "my little dove"
urpi = dove, -lla diminutive, -y possessive suffix (mine)

And you can make it even sweeter:
Urpillachay
-cha is another diminutive :D

Can you mention a few that have been assimilated into the Spanish used in Peru or world-wide?

Off the top of my head...

kuntur -> condor
ch'arki -> jerky
llama -> llama
paqu -> alpaca
papa -> papa (potato)

In Peru and Bolivia:
wawa = child (the same pronunciation as guagua in Central America, but very different meaning!)
chuño (in Southern Peruvian Quechua ch'uño with an explosive ch' sound) = freeze dried potato
watia = a type of earthen oven for cooking vegetables and sometimes meat, very popular in the highlands
as well as many other foods and dishes... I should create a topic on that in our Quechua section. 8-)

Regarding translator game - OK, I will try to use cellphone data if wifi dies. :D

So, "allinchu" would be "[estás] bien?" and "allillanchu" would be something like "[estás] biencito?" :D

Urpillachay = mi palomitita :) Lovely.

So Quechua is an agglutinative language, like Nahuatl.

Wawa, yes, quite a different meaning! In Mexico we may use chamaco, escuincle, huerco or chilpayate, to refer to small children.

Chuño and watia, their definitions do sound very Peruvian!

"I should create a topic on that" Yes, you should!

Thanks!

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
Explorer
Portugal

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Explorer »

It's interesting to see how Arabic takes up much less space than the other languages :o

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Deleted User 133

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by Deleted User 133 »

[mention]Explorer[/mention], take a look.

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by gmads »

Alivated wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:12 am

@Explorer, take a look.
and a single word can function as an entire sentence in English

I thought it would then be a polysynthetic language, but it seems it is just a very synthetic one. What I could not determine, as pages do not seem to agree, is if it is fusional or agglutinative.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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John238922
Australia

Re: Translator Jumble

Post by John238922 »

gmads wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:48 pm

Translator Jumble game. Thirds round. Results.


After each username is the sentence she/he received.

  1. Stasia - One should not sell the bear skin before killing him.
  2. MustafaOuz526752 - Il ne faut pas vendre la peau de l'ours avant de l'avoir tué.
  3. Cifi - Don't sell the skin till you have caught the bear.
  4. Alivated - No cuentes los pollos antes de que nazcan.
  5. Lama.03 - لا تعدّ الدجاج قبل أن يفقس.
  6. Explorer - Zähle keine Hühner bevor sie geschlüpft sind.
  7. Gmads - No cuentes los pollos antes de que salgan del huevo.
  8. Stasia - Do not count the chickens before they emerge from the egg.

Sadly nobody proposed

Its not over until the fat lady sings.

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