"des" or "de"

[dakanga]

I recently came across a brilliant question asked by @David680268 :

Hi all,

Is the following sentence wrong?

Elle a acheté des petits coussins ronds pour mettre sur le canapé.

Duo wants "de" instead of "des".

I know that I have to use "de" instead of "des" for quantities such as
"beaucoup de coussins" etc., but I am not sure here.

One person in the (somewhat chaotic) sentence discussion said that she was French and would say "des".
Thanks!

edited: to read the well considered and interesting response by David, check out here

In Duolingo, and in many other French courses you learn :
Un and une become des when you are talking about more than one thing. In English, we can just say cats, but in French you have to say des chats.

Also see:

• viewtopic.php?p=35378-unit-11-discuss-d ... ome#p35378

Though there is a little more to this.

des becomes de/d’ when in front of adjectives that precede plural nouns.

Check out Unit 62 Describe what's in your home, talk about art :
viewtopic.php?p=35678-unit-62-describe- ... art#p35678

Related posts

• Les or Des? by DXLI
• Adjectives
• https://languageatlas.com/french-b1/des ... ral-nouns/
• https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/d ... de-la-des/
• https://www.thoughtco.com/du-de-la-des-1368977
• https://languageatlas.com/french-b1/des ... ral-nouns/
• https://www.francaisfacile.com/exercice ... -11349.php
• http://www.forum.french-linguistics.co. ... de sports.
• https://french.stackexchange.com/questi ... al-context
  http://www.forum.french-linguistics.co. ... de sports.

The locked Duolingo sentence discussion on this sentence : https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/3219 ... -the-couch

[vero-bis]

Hi !

Elle a acheté des petits coussins ronds... --> Is what I would say.
Elle a acheté de petits coussins ronds.... --> Sounds weird to me.
Elle a acheté de jolis petits coussins ronds... --> OK
Elle a acheté des jolis petits coussins ronds... --> Usual when speaking.
Elle a acheté d'adorables petits coussins ronds... --> OK
Elle a acheté des adorables petits coussins ronds... --> No!

[MoniqueMaRie]

J'ai appris une règle simple à ce sujet : chaque fois que l'adjectif précède le nom, "des" devient "de"
Existe-t-il une exception pour deux adjectifs, l'un avant, l'autre après le nom ou peut-être pour les adjectifs qui sont toujours avant le nom (petit, grand, nouveau...)?

I have learned a simple rule for this: whenever the adjective is before the noun "des" becomes "de"
Duolingo seems to follow this rule.

[Saperlipopette!]

I really like the video by Ann Le Grand from Bretagne on this topic. It's nearly fourteen minutes.

De, du, des : les articles définis, indéfinis et partitifs en français

The Blog post accompanies the video.

I have a little trouble distiguishing the partial negation that she talks about from the full negation.

She says the partitives become de when written, or in the formal register if the adjective precedes the noun.

[dakanga]

Thank you all for contributing to this discussion.

[mention]vero-bis[/mention] , may I ask what region you are from, as in Canada, mainland France, etc. As I find there are also different customs/guidelines that are followed for different speakers of French.

Also, even within French there is variance. As to if it is a casual discussion for some different communities. While there are usually more defined rules often for official/educational communications. So it can depend on the customs/guidelines of the community.

[vero-bis]

Salut, dakanga !
I am from France.
Of course, there are differences... that's why I say "sounds weird to me".

I don't have a button to delete one of my two messages. (A little cross should be there). I wanted to correct the first one and I don't know how I made a second post...

[dakanga]

Salut Véro,
Somebody now seems to have fixed this re the double entry. Do not stress. Also, we are all human.

We are here to learn, and to be a community - together.
I am an English speaker, here to learn French, and here to assist all and any to learn another language to the best of my abilities, and in a collaborative way. (with some teaching skills in a broader sense)
I get things wrong, I make mistakes, and I appreciate it when people point things out.
I also would like to encourage MANY voices and support many people to answer questions, including to explain things in different ways, to advise of links to other sources they find valuable, especially if they are available gratuit (free). While also that this community is not used to market things that cost people money to access.

Different explanations can be more relevant for different people. Including what part of their learning journey they are on.
For there is no one way to explain things.
I am not an expert. I continue to strive to be better, and to understand nuances. I strive to serve this community.

Your participation is greatly appreciated here, and I greatly celebrate it.

Pointing out exceptions to guidelines if a very valuable thing to do. I am in your debt.

Do you know if the exceptions you have pointed out would be accepted in an exam situation, or by official organizations, for example, such as the Académie Française : https://www.academie-francaise.fr/ ?

[vero-bis]

Do you know if the exceptions you have pointed out would be accepted in an exam situation, or by official organizations, for example, such as the Académie Française : https://www.academie-francaise.fr/ ?

I am not an expert, either! (Not sure this sentence is correct...)

In a formal situation, the best thing to do is to follow the rule! So use "de" in this example.

The spoken language does not always follow the rules !

I'll have a look at the Académie !

[dakanga]

Most of my time is spent in the area of Aquitaine France. And they have some variations in the patois - that I am still getting my head around.

And as is also said in the sentence discussion for Duolingo that at the moment we can see, in spoken language the rules are more general, and taken in context of other aspects of the conversation you are having.

In a way, similar to how quite a number of people can even read a lot of English, even when the words of the letters are scrambled in the word, providing the first and the last letter is correct. Which is called typoglycemia. Which is a way that the brain uses "chunking" to understand things.

The concept of "chunking" is also something Duolingo uses.

i.e.

https://blog.duolingo.com/learning-gram ... der-rules/

How to learn and practice grammatical gender

Now that you know how grammatical gender works in the language you're learning, here are some ideas for how to remember the gender of nouns:

• Study the noun and gender together. If you make flashcards, write out the word with a word that makes its gender clear. So instead of learning the Spanish word casa alone, write out la casa (with the feminine la). (In fact, this is how babies learn these languages – they learn chunks like lacasa and later learn that it's la + casa!) You could also use a phrase to make it clear, like la casa roja, so that there are multiple hints about the gender of the noun (the feminine la and the feminine roja). Be sure to pick words that have easy, clear clues – for example, azul (the Spanish word for "blue") is the same for masculine and feminine, so it won't help you remember gender! This will be especially important in French, where many masculine and feminine forms sound the same.

other references:

• https://blog.duolingo.com/crown-levels- ... -redesign/
• https://blog.duolingo.com/covering-all- ... ng-skills/
• https://blog.duolingo.com/crown-levels- ... -redesign/

[dakanga]

Académie Française is the official guardian/moderator/regulator of the French language.
It is a French government run authority.

To read more about it people may be interested in checking out also :

• https://www.thoughtco.com/academie-francaise-1364522
  https://www.fluentu.com/blog/french/academie-francaise/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_Française
• https://www.lawlessfrench.com/expressio ... pressions/

[vero-bis]

Je viens de mettre un message sur le site de l'Académie française, à propos de cette phrase ! J'espère avoir une réponse, un jour !
Ce site est plein de rubriques passionantes !

[vero-bis]

I have a little trouble distiguishing the partial negation that she talks about from the full negation.

This partial negation is when there is an opposition; i think it is more clear here :
https://www.academie-francaise.fr/quest ... -em-strong

[David680268]

J'ai appris une règle simple à ce sujet : chaque fois que l'adjectif précède le nom, "des" devient "de"

I would like to use the occasion to out myself as the person who posted the message quoted by DaKanga. I have been able to solve the problem myself, so I can share with you what I have learnt:

You are mostly right, with a few qualifications. The adjective just before the noun is responsible for turning "des" into "de". So as far as I understand it, the following two sentences would be correct (I cut out some of the stuff that is not relevant here):

Elle a acheté des coussins.

Elle a acheté de petits coussins.

There are exceptions, though.

If "des" is a contraction of "de + les" - which is not the case in our example here -, it is still "des" even before an adjective before a noun. Here is a very nice explanation and I am going to borrow the example (I hope the link and the example are ok):

Je suis jalouse des nouvelles bottes que tu as achetées.

The fundamental difference is that "Elle a acheté de petits coussins" means that she bought some pillows, but des nouvelles bottes here means specific boots, so "des" sort of hides a definitive article.

[MoniqueMaRie]

.. and just when I thought that duolingo was clear on this issue, they give me

"je préfère me souvenir seulement des bons moments" as the proposed translation of "I prefer to remember only good times"

[vero-bis]

Je ne suis pas du tout sûre, mais la difficulté ici vient, je crois, de "se souvenir de" qui utilise la préposition "de".
"Je me souviens de bons moments", selon moi, c'est de certains bons moments.
"Je me souviens des bons moments", ce serait les bons moments, en général.

À noter : se rappeler s'emploie sans préposition : "Je préfère me rappeler les bons moments"

[vero-bis]

Je viens de mettre un message sur le site de l'Académie française, à propos de cette phrase ! J'espère avoir une réponse, un jour !
Ce site est plein de rubriques passionantes !

Ma question : Faut-il employer "de" ou "des" dans la phrase suivante : elle a acheté de/des petits coussins ronds pour mettre sur le canapé. La règle indique "de" mais à l'oral, cela sonne bizarrement.

L'Académie Française est rapide, voici sa réponse. (L'auteur ne se prononce pas sur la phrase proposée.)

Madame,
Voyez ce que nous avons écrit à ce sujet dans cette même rubrique :

« Des beaux yeux » pour « De beaux yeux » Le 2 décembre 2021
Emplois fautifs
Quand un nom au pluriel est précédé d’un adjectif, il convient de remplacer l’article indéfini des par de : des garçons, de bons garçons. C’est ce que fait la langue écrite, mais aussi, souvent, la langue orale, comme le montre le fameux « T’as de beaux yeux, tu sais » de Jean Gabin à Michèle Morgan, dans Quai des brumes. Cet usage ne vaut plus, bien sûr, quand l’adjectif et le nom forment une locution nominale dont les éléments sont sentis comme inséparables. On dit donc acheter des petits pois, entendre hululer des grands ducs, croiser des grands-mères alertes (mais on dirait de délicieux petits pois, de magnifiques grands ducs, de vaillantes grands-mères).

on dit .......................................................... on ne dit pas
De violentes rafales ont abattu les arbres.....Des violentes rafales ont abattu les arbres
Il fallut de longs jours de travail...................Il fallut des longs jours de travail

« Dire, Ne pas dire » paraît le premier jeudi de chaque mois sur notre site et les différents articles ainsi parus ont fait la matière de plusieurs ouvrages intitulés "Dire, Ne pas dire" et « Bonheurs et surprises de la langue », publiés aux éditions Philippe Rey.
Très cordialement,
Patrick Vannier
Service du Dictionnaire

[dakanga]

Translated :

Madame,
Voyez ce que nous avons écrit à ce sujet dans cette même rubrique :
See what we wrote about it in this same topic:

Emplois fautifs
Examples of problems

Quand un nom au pluriel est précédé d’un adjectif, il convient de remplacer l’article indéfini des par de :
When a noun in the plural is preceded by an adjective, the indefinite article des should be replaced by de:

des garçons,
boys,
de bons garçons.
good boys

C’est ce que fait la langue écrite, mais aussi, souvent, la langue orale, comme le montre le fameux
This is what the written language does, but also, often, the oral language, as shown by the famous
« T’as de beaux yeux, tu sais »
“You have beautiful eyes, you know”
de Jean Gabin à Michèle Morgan, dans Quai des brumes.
from Jean Gabin to Michèle Morgan, in Quay of the Mists.

Cet usage ne vaut plus, bien sûr, quand l’adjectif et le nom forment une locution nominale dont les éléments sont sentis comme inséparables.
This usage no longer applies, of course, when the adjective and the noun form a noun phrase whose elements are felt to be inseparable.

On dit donc :
So we say :

• acheter des petits pois,
  buy peas,
• entendre hululer des grands ducs,
  hear hooting eagle owls,
• croiser des grands-mères alertes
  meet alert grandmothers
  (mais on dirait de délicieux petits pois, de magnifiques grands ducs, de vaillantes grands-mères).
  (but it looks like delicious peas, magnificent eagle owls, valiant grandmothers).

on dit we say	on ne dit pas we do not say
De violentes rafales ont abattu les arbres Heavy gusts downed the trees	Des violentes rafales ont abattu les arbres
Il fallut de longs jours de travail It took long days of work.	Il fallut des longs jours de travail

« Dire, Ne pas dire » paraît le premier jeudi de chaque mois sur notre site et les différents articles ainsi parus ont fait la matière de plusieurs ouvrages intitulés "Dire, Ne pas dire" et « Bonheurs et surprises de la langue », publiés aux éditions Philippe Rey.
"Say, Don't Say" appears the first Thursday of each month on our site and the various articles thus published have been the subject of several books entitled "Say, Don't Say" and "Happiness and Surprises of Language", published by Philippe Rey.

[dakanga]

So in response to the excellent question by [mention]MoniqueMaRie[/mention] at : viewtopic.php?p=20784-des-or-de#p20784

.. and just when I thought that duolingo was clear on this issue, they give me

"je préfère me souvenir seulement des bons moments" as the proposed translation of "I prefer to remember only good times"

des bons moments is a "noun phrase", which is why it does not follow this guideline.

edited :

Though the thoughts suggested by [mention]vero-bis[/mention] are worth pondering, as in :

Je ne suis pas du tout sûre, mais la difficulté ici vient, je crois, de "se souvenir de" qui utilise la préposition "de".
I'm not at all sure, but the difficulty here comes, I believe, from "remembering" which uses the preposition "of".
"Je me souviens de bons moments", selon moi, c'est de certains bons moments.
"I remember good times", in my opinion, it's some good times.
"Je me souviens des bons moments", ce serait les bons moments, en général.
"I remember the good times" would be the good times, in general.

[LICA98]

btw when you have a number percentage do you put de or des after it? like 30% d__ gens
because I've seen both used

[dakanga]

[mention]LICA98[/mention] , could you provide some examples, with complete sentences.

[LICA98]

@LICA98 , could you provide some examples, with complete sentences.

what do you need a complete sentence for? well for example "30% d__ gens sur ce forum parlent français"

[dakanga]

I finally worked out how to track down a number of examples for us to be able to talk about.

from : https://context.reverso.net/traduction/ ... er cent de

1. au moins 30 per cent de graminées et cypéracées.
2. 8 per cent de plus que l'année précédente
3. per cent de la population rurale
4. 10 per cent de la superficie
5. 50 per cent de fleurs sauvages
6. 78 per cent de la population active
7. 55 per cent du coût total
8. 50 per cent du marché mondial
9. 85 pour cent de l'humanité vivent
10. 10 pour cent de nos forêts abritent
11. à cent pour cent de Shaw Communications Inc
12. 10 pour cent de nos forêts abritent
13. 60 pour cent de SOTELGUI
14. 30 pour cent de basses, 27 pour cent de ténors, 24 pour cent d'altos et 19 pour cent de sopranos
15. 86 pour cent de la population
16. 18 pour cent de sucre, 2 ou 3 pour cent de matières solubles non sucrées, 4 ou 5 pour cent de fibres et de l'eau
17. 80 pour cent de riz, 17 pour cent de blé et 3 pour cent de maïs

[David680268]

So in response to the excellent question by @MoniqueMaRie at : viewtopic.php?p=20784-des-or-de#p20784

.. and just when I thought that duolingo was clear on this issue, they give me

"je préfère me souvenir seulement des bons moments" as the proposed translation of "I prefer to remember only good times"

des bons moments is a "noun phrase", which is why it does not follow this guideline.

I am a bit late to the party, but I think "je préfère me souvenir seulement des bons moments" is an example of "des" = "de + les".

[LICA98]

I finally worked out how to track down a number of examples for us to be able to talk about.

from : https://context.reverso.net/traduction/ ... er cent de

1. au moins 30 per cent de graminées et cypéracées.
2. 8 per cent de plus que l'année précédente
3. per cent de la population rurale
4. 10 per cent de la superficie
5. 50 per cent de fleurs sauvages
6. 78 per cent de la population active
7. 55 per cent du coût total
8. 50 per cent du marché mondial
9. 85 pour cent de l'humanité vivent
10. 10 pour cent de nos forêts abritent
11. à cent pour cent de Shaw Communications Inc
12. 10 pour cent de nos forêts abritent
13. 60 pour cent de SOTELGUI
14. 30 pour cent de basses, 27 pour cent de ténors, 24 pour cent d'altos et 19 pour cent de sopranos
15. 86 pour cent de la population
16. 18 pour cent de sucre, 2 ou 3 pour cent de matières solubles non sucrées, 4 ou 5 pour cent de fibres et de l'eau
17. 80 pour cent de riz, 17 pour cent de blé et 3 pour cent de maïs

so indeed both are used

[dakanga]

Just because there are a small number of examples of this being used, does not mean the examples are correct.

I am still looking for a standard in these examples, or if these examples are "exceptions/colloquial usage", and are not correct in formal French.