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Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

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Cifi

Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

Post by Cifi »

I'm aware that it is not strictly required, but very, very common to use it in most sentences.

But then there are Duolingo sentences where they would reject it, e.g. this one:

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/32773732

which doesn't accept "Ella le añade un programa nuevo / un nuevo programa a la computadora / al ordenador".

Would there be a reason for it? Does this one sound better to you without the clitic pronoun?

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

b05aplmun.ca
United States of America

Re: Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

Post by b05aplmun.ca »

If I saw "le" in a sentence like that, I would assume it meant something like "She adds a new program to the computer for him/her."

I suspect that here "a" is a preposition, so "computer" is a prepositional object, rather than an indirect object. A loosely parallel sentence might be "ella pone la computadora en la caja." We would not treat "caja" as an indirect object.

Other thoughts?

Cifi

Re: Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

Post by Cifi »

Well if we used poner with the preposition a, Spanish speakers explained that they would use the pronoun. It was a sentence like she put too much salt in the salsa (or soup?), and they said either

  • Puso demasiada sal en la salsa

or

  • Le puso demasiada sal a la salsa

would be fine, but they wouldn't say

  • Puso demasiada sal a la salsa

if I remember correctly.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

Post by gmads »

The third person Indirect Object Pronoun "le", particularly in Spanish-speaking countries in America (the continent), has traditionally been used in a redundant way, eventhough some could say this is a grammatical mistake.

It is used in a redundant way because by their own definition, pronouns (meaning, in place of the noun) are used to replace a noun, and therefore, if a pronoun is used, the noun should be omitted.

First of all, there are two types of object pronouns: direct and indirect, the former substitute direct complements (which receive the action of a verb), and the latter substitute indirect complements (which are benefited or affected from the action of the verb).

Let's start with a simple sentence (I will not include in it the "le" pronoun, though it should be there):

  • el niño escribe un poema a su madre

Here,

  • "el niño" is the subject (the one performing the action)

  • "escribe" is the verb (which describes the action being done)

  • "un poema" is the direct complement (what receives the action of the verb)

  • "a su madre" is the indirect complement (who/what is being benefited from the action)

Let's first substitute the DC "un poema" with a DOP. We then get the following sentence:

  • el niño lo escribe a su madre

Here, "lo" is the direct object pronoun because it replaces "un poema" (the direct complement).

Now let's just substitute the IC "a su madre" with an IOP. We now get the sentence:

  • el niño le escribe un poema

Here "le" is the indirect object pronoun because it replaces "a su madre" (the indirect complement).

Given the last change, one could rightfully think that using "le" simultaneously with the indirect complement "a su madre" would be a mistake, but it is not, on the contrary, it's presence has traditionally been expected, what has been optional, is the indirect complement:

  • El niño le escribe un poema

  • El niño le escribe un poema a su madre

Currently, there seems to be a tendency in many sites (like Duolingo) and articles about this subject to avoid using it in a redundant way, so maybe there will come the time when it will be natural not to include it if the IC is present, but for the time being, at least in Mexico, it is the most common way of using it; to my ears it still sounds weird hearing "el padre compró una casa a su hija" :ugeek: instead of "el padre le compró una casa a su hija" :)

So yes, "ella le añade un programa nuevo a la computadora," at least to many of us, Spanish native speakers, is more than correct! ;)


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Last edited by gmads on Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Omission of the redundant indirect object pronoun

Post by gmads »

For anyone interested in learning a bit more about redundant object pronouns, section 11.16 ("Redundant object pronouns"), from the "A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish" (ISBN-13: 978-1444137699; amazon, worldcat), by John Butt & Carmen Benjamin, could prove to be a valuable source of information.


Image taken from Google books:

redundant-object-pronouns.png
redundant-object-pronouns.png (63.17 KiB) Viewed 183 times



:hash:  ㆍespañol ㆍgramática

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