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Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

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Cifi

Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Cifi »

I wonder what good translations of "Clown costumes were worn by both of the thieves" might be, assuming we are keeping to passive voice in Spanish.

My try:

Fueron usados disfraces de payaso por ambos ladrones.

Is this correct or would you favour Duolingo's translation: "Los disfraces de payasos fueron usados por ambos ladrones"? (To me this sounds specific, like e.g. these particular costumes that were found two blocks away soon after the robbery, but I may be wrong.)

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(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

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Stasia
Poland

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Stasia »

[mention]Cifi[/mention], the second translation (Los disfraces de payasos fueron usados por ambos ladrones) sounds more natural to me.

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Julian_L.
Argentina

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Julian_L. »

First as a clarification, this sentence in a normal conversation would use the active voice:
[Ambos]/[Los dos] ladrones usaron disfraces de payaso

But if for some reason you have to use the passive voice, there are two options:

  • (Unos) disfraces de payaso fueron usados por [ambos]/[los dos] ladrones. → Some clown costumes were worn by both of the thieves.

    • Since «disfraces» is plural and (logically) there is no direct or indirect object in the sentence, you might hear or see this sentence without the indefinite article (mainly if it's an isolated sentence giving information about the situation). I can't assure if omitting the article is really correct, but it's possible to find sentences where the subject is plural and there isn't any determiners before it.

  • Los disfraces de payaso fueron usados por [ambos]/[los dos] ladrones. → The clown costumes were worn by both of the thieves.

    • In this sentence, either the costumes were mentioned before or there is a visual identification of them (an image, a photo, a video, or they were found).

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Cifi

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Cifi »

Julian_L. wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:33 pm

First as a clarification, this sentence in a normal conversation would use the active voice:
[Ambos]/[Los dos] ladrones usaron disfraces de payaso

Yes, absolutely. I wouldn't question this.

Julian_L. wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:33 pm

Since «disfraces» is plural and (logically) there is no direct or indirect object in the sentence, you might hear or see this sentence without the indefinite article (mainly if it's an isolated sentence giving information about the situation). I can't assure if omitting the article is really correct, but it's possible to find sentences where the subject is plural and there isn't any determiners before it.

I've always been told as a rule of thumb not to place a subject without any article before the verb (in those rare cases where subjects are not generalised). It might have been @psluk or [mention]Fer²[/mention] who told me so.

Julian_L. wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:33 pm

Los disfraces de payaso fueron usados por [ambos]/[los dos] ladrones. → The clown costumes were worn by both of the thieves.

  • In this sentence, either the costumes were mentioned before or there is a visual identification of them (an image, a photo, a video, or they were found).

So, I understand this would be specific (as per my suspicion), right?

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(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

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Fer²
Spain

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Fer² »

Cifi wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:22 pm

I've always been told as a rule of thumb not to place a subject without any article before the verb (in those rare cases where subjects are not generalised). It might have been @psluk or @Fer² who told me so.

It might have been me. I still think it's mostly accurate. Julián's version would work as a newspaper headline, that follows its own style (perhaps inherited from the times of telegrams and word ads where you paid per word printed). It might also work as a contrasting element? I'm thinking along the lines of «Disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones. Lo que usaron sus cómplices fue solamente caretas de payaso». I don't know, as Julián says the sentence sounds awkward in the passive voice.

Oh, and just throwing this in as it works for two thieves: «Sendos disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones».

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by gmads »

Beware with the word "sendos," it is quite common to think that it means "two," but it doesn't.

It should not be used as the equivalent of two or both, without distributive value.

It is a distributive adjective that means "one for each of the persons or things mentioned." Used only in the plural.

See: sendos.

A few examples:

  • dos ladrones, encubiertos en sendos (each one of the robbers was disguised) disfraces de payaso, robaron la tienda
  • los tres competidores terminaron con sendos trofeos
  • cinco niños han fallecido en sendos hogares por ingesta de productos de limpieza

I'd say, "disfraces de payasos fueron usados por ambos ladrones."

--- edit

A few more references about "sendos":

https://www.wikilengua.org/index.php/sendos
https://www.fundeu.es/recomendacion/sendos-168/
https://blog.lengua-e.com/2010/sendos/


:hash:  ㆍespañol ㆍvocabulario ㆍSentenceDiscussion

Last edited by gmads on Mon May 01, 2023 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fer²
Spain

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Fer² »

Thank you, I was not entirely certain that sendos could be used for more than two, hence my comment. I would still use that sentence as is if the number of robbers had been established or were deemed irrelevant. The distributiveness is preserved: each of the robbers used one clown costume. What I would avoid is sendos ladrones.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by gmads »

Fer² wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:07 pm

I would still use that sentence as is if the number of robbers had been established or were deemed irrelevant.

I am not quite sure I got what you meant. That you would still say, "Sendos disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones" because you assume that the number of robbers was previously established? Well, the sentence "disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones. Lo que usaron sus cómplices fue solamente caretas de payaso" certainly does not give us any hint about the number. And if "deemed irrelevant," then using "sendos" would be wrong, as the distributiveness would be missing, there would not be a one-to-one correspondence between robbers and desguises.

Fer² wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:07 pm

The distributiveness is preserved: each of the robbers used one clown costume. What I would avoid is sendos ladrones.

I'm still unsure about the underlying idea.

Anyway, what the link I put explains is that "sendos" does not mean two, nor any other number, and for "sendos" to be correctly used a previous number of persons or things must have been expressed.

  • los tres competidores (the number of competitors has been established) terminaron con sendos trofeos (each one of those three ended with a trophy)

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Fer²
Spain

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by Fer² »

gmads wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:03 pm

I am not quite sure I got what you meant. That you would still say, "Sendos disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones" because you assume that the number of robbers was previously established? Well, the sentence "disfraces de payaso fueron usados por los ladrones. Lo que usaron sus cómplices fue solamente caretas de payaso" certainly does not give us any hint about the number.

No, what I meant is that I would use that sentence in a context where the number of robbers had been previously established. After all, none of the sentences discussed on this thread (especially those using ambos) could be said out of the blue without some underlying context explaining what we're talking about.

The bit about disfraces and caretas is completely unrelated. It is an example of how I would use a plural subject with no determiners as a contrasting element.

gmads wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:03 pm

And if "deemed irrelevant," then using "sendos" would be wrong, as the distributiveness would be missing, there would not be a one-to-one correspondence between robbers and desguises.

[...]

Anyway, what the link I put explains is that "sendos" does not mean two, nor any other number, and for "sendos" to be correctly used a previous number of persons or things must have been expressed.

I guess I have a more flexible understanding. As I see it, sendos needs a plural expression (or something that evaluates to that) as a referent. But it suffices that it be plural, the number is not required for there to be a one-to-one correspondence. So in my proposed sentence it would be just los ladrones.

See what the NGLE says regarding sendos, from 21.8h onwards. I think the example about some undefined number off people receiving sendas cajas on the mail illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

http://aplica.rae.es/grweb/cgi-bin/v.cg ... ilDtdNRhSE

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Sentence in passive voice with partitive noun

Post by gmads »

Fer² wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:56 am

I guess I have a more flexible understanding. As I see it, sendos needs a plural expression (or something that evaluates to that) as a referent. But it suffices that it be plural, the number is not required for there to be a one-to-one correspondence. So in my proposed sentence it would be just los ladrones.

See what the NGLE says regarding sendos, from 21.8h onwards. I think the example about some undefined number off people receiving sendas cajas on the mail illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

http://aplica.rae.es/grweb/cgi-bin/v.cg ... ilDtdNRhSE

It was not a case of me having a stricter understanding about the subject, which I usually have given one is dealing with grammatical topics, but rather that the reference I used, the Diccionario panhispánico de dudas, from 2005, didn't considered that possibility, and so I followed. Yes, I should have used the Nueva gramática de la lengua española, from 2009. Thanks.

Anyway, given that is quite common for people to understand "sendos" as meaning "two" or "both," I would not risk it and I would just avoid using it altogether in the referred sense. I think I would rather use "respectivos/respectivas," for example: "les avisó que en una semana recibirían por correo sus respectivas cajas con sus chequeras personalizadas." It is just a bit longer, but nothing to get carried away ;)

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