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Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

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MatOzone
Catalonia

Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by MatOzone »

While living in Nizhni Nóvgorod, i usually heard expressions like Посмотрите, чтобы сделать это правильно, пожалуйста! or Посмотри, можем ли мы сходить в кино.

Is it "standard russian" to replace "to try" by "to look/to see"?

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duome

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by duome »

The second phrase has quite literal translation "see if we can go to the movies".
The first one is unclear to me - can you give the English or Catalan equivalent?)

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MatOzone
Catalonia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by MatOzone »

duome wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:14 pm

The first one is unclear to me - can you give the English or Catalan equivalent?)

"Try to make it correctly, please!" I only heard those kind of expressions (also the second one) in that "область" (¿english word is region?).
But I'm talking about thirty years ago, in ~ 1994-1995...

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duome

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by duome »

It wouldn't be "ПОсмотри(те)", but rather "смотри(те), ..." - this way it would be an equivalent of an imperative form - "смотри(те), сделай(те) это правильно!" - "be sure that you make it right!" - it can be used to emphasize the request.

And you wouldn't say "please" in the end in this case.

область = region

"see if we can go to the movies" is never an imperative, so these two examples are totally different use cases; in this case it's always "ПОсмотри(те)" - it's kind of "softer" this way, but I cannot give you a more "academic" explanation of the origins of this form.

To sum it up, these two examples:
The imperative "смотри" is an equivalent of "be sure", while "посмотри,..." is literally "see if..."

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MatOzone
Catalonia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by MatOzone »

Раньше я говорил по русски в девяностые... но сейчас я действительно многое забыл...
(I spoke russian in the '90s, but I forgot a lot), and I don't want to use translators, heheh!

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duome

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by duome »

One more thing: with the imperative form you wouldn't really expect adults to be using it talking to each other, or maybe rarely it could be a boss/employee relationship, otherwise it's almost exclusively used by parents when they're talking to their children, or it can be a strict teacher talking to children... or maybe a wife talking to her husband ))

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

Да, слово "Посмотреть" часто применяется как слово "Попробовать". Тут собственно и всё объяснение.
"Посмотрим что получится" = "Попробуем, может получится".

Yes, the word "Look" is often used as the word "Try". Here, in fact, is the whole explanation.
"Let's see what happens" = "Let's try, maybe it will work out".

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

duome wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:16 pm

One more thing: with the imperative form you wouldn't really expect adults to be using it talking to each other, or maybe rarely it could be a boss/employee relationship, otherwise it's almost exclusively used by parents when they're talking to their children, or it can be a strict teacher talking to children

На самом деле, всё совсем не строго. На деле, в России могут говорить и так и эдак. В бытовом обиходе, здесь нет никакого правила или принципа, согласно которому Надо делать так или вот так. Увы, когда учителя преподают язык, они любят уходить в заблуждения о присутствии таких правил.

In fact, there is no strictness here at all, and in Russia they can say both this and that. In everyday life, there is no rule or principle according to which one Should talk like this or like that. Alas, when teachers teach a language, they like to go astray about the presence of such rules.

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duome

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by duome »

There would be this strictness in a lot of cases. There wouldn't be any in some other cases. All examples are valid. The more we think about it the more examples we can give. It's not a "rule", it's just so many examples of real life usage that we can give.

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

duome wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:12 am

There would be this strictness in a lot of cases. There wouldn't be any in some other cases. All examples are valid. The more we think about it the more examples we can give. It's not a "rule", it's just so many examples of real life usage that we can give.

В нашей стране, нет строгости, даже нельзя сказать что она редка. Наоборот, если вы будете стараться разговаривать в конкретной манере, в конкретных случаях, вас как раз не поймут. В России люди предпочитают общение без конкретных манер, открыто, как нравится. А если ты пытаешься "соответствовать", то как раз общий язык с людьми не найдёшь. Я живу здесь с рождения и знаю о чём говорю.
В повседневной жизни мы говорим так, как нам нравится. И если мы будем соблюдать определенные манеры, люди будут реагировать на нас как на незнакомцев или, что еще хуже, как на подхалимов. Так это работает, на деле.
Это если мы говорим о повседневной жизни, разумеется если солдат говорит с генералом, это другое дело 8-) .

In our country, there is no strictness. It cannot even be said that it is rare. On the contrary, if you try to talk in a specific manner, in specific cases, you just will not be understood. In Russia, people prefer to communicate without specific manners, openly, as they like. And if you are trying to "match", then you will not find a common language with people. I've been living here since I was born and I know what I'm talking about.
In everyday life, we speak as we like. And if we observe certain manners, people will react to us as strangers or, even worse, as sycophants. That's how it is, in fact.
This is if we are talking about everyday life, of course, if a soldier is talking to a general, this is another matter 8-) .

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

Это чем-то похоже на ту разницу, которая есть в цензуре брани разных стран. Испания, допустим допускает ругательства и со стороны официальных лиц на серьёзных мероприятиях и собраниях, и даже когда ругаются маленькие дети, это не порицается. Я недавно узнал об этом от здешнего форумчанина кстати). Он даже пример привёл, как президент поносил матерей журналистов и самих журналистов, за не понравившуюся ему статью).

This is somewhat similar to the difference that exists in the censorship of swearing from different countries. Spain, for example, allows swearing by officials at serious events and meetings, and even when small children swear, it is not censured. I recently found out about this from a local forum user by the way). He even gave an example of how the president reviled the mothers of journalists and the journalists themselves, for articles he did not like).

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

Мне самому это сложно представить. Ладно ещё политики, они и морду друг другу бьют, и ругаются, не редкость. Но дети..)
Вот цитата-

Vitaly429603 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:42 pm
Amlir wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:04 pm

То есть, вы хотите сказать, что у них отсутствует фактическая цензура на мат и ругательства?.

Её там вообще нет. Пятилетний ребёнок, говоря о плохой погоде, спокойно завернёт что-нибудь этакое, и ему никто слова не скажет.

It's hard for me to imagine it myself. Okay, politicians, they beat each other's faces and swear, not uncommon. But children..)
here is the quote -

Vitaly429603 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:42 pm
Amlir wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:04 pm

That is, you want to say that they have no actual censorship on the mat and swearing?.

She's not there at all. A five-year-old child, talking about bad weather, will calmly wrap something like that, and no one will say a word to him.

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duome

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by duome »

Amlir wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:28 am

Наоборот, если вы будете стараться разговаривать в конкретной манере, в конкретных случаях, вас как раз не поймут.

Как раз вас я и не понимаю.

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Amlir
Russia

Re: Is it correct to use "To see" instead of "To try"?

Post by Amlir »

duome wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:40 am

Как раз вас я и не понимаю.

Так не Русский же)). Ничего удивительного. Или мы сейчас выясним что админ этого форума родом из России и прожил тут треть века, как я, говоря на этом языке каждый день? :) .

Мне напомнило всё это, вот эту миниатюру, в конце которой, учитель решил пойти раздать советов аборигенам)). Не будь таким как этот чувак).

All this reminded me of a miniature, at the end of which, the teacher decided to go give advice to the aborigines)). Don't be like this dude).

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