Translation alternatives vs. learning a language

[g-heike]

Since yesterday the new Italian course of German is released in the beta version and I am surprised that already extremely many translation alternatives are inserted there.

I assume that maybe many sentences come from the German course for Italians. I work with the web version of Duolingo and have long installed the SolutionViewer as an addon (https://github.com/blmage/duolingo-solution-viewer).

This allows me to see which alternatives to a sentence have already been included. I am puzzled by some alternatives that are more colloquial in nature and sometimes I doubt if this is correct German.

So it looks to me as if every alternative that someone reported at some point was taken over without any real check.

Last year the volunteer course creator program was terminated and "professional linguists", at least that's how I understood it, were to be hired. I don't know if studied linguists or language teachers act that way, or if a language learning curriculum would adopt all possible translation alternatives, whether just colloquial, regional dialect, etc, that way.

Regional dialect or colloquial language can be picked up quickly on the "street", but I think it is important to know the actual high level language as well.

Especially if someone intends to learn a language more than just for fun, could be alienated if the person shows up somewhere with colloquial language.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Dodoa]

Honestly, in terms of learning colloquial vs. formal language, my experience has mostly been the opposite. I've been told by English native speakers, that while my English is very good, I speak like I'm trying to write an essay. Learning formal language is great if you want to write essays and polite e-mails, but it doesn't work for making friends or even to effectively communicate in the workplace. For that you need to learn colloquial expressions. I've also seen this at my current job. I work with a lot of people who've been in Austria for a few years and who have completet courses up to B2 level and wouldn't have a problem writing an essay about politics or reading a newspaper, but they all struggle to hold a conversation about everyday topics, because they don't understand enough of the colloquial language the german native speakers use. So I'm very much not convinced that learning formal language will be more useful to you if you are learning a language for something else than for fun.

Of course the translation alternatives should be gramatically correct, but I don't see the harm in allowing colloquial alternatives, especially if the versions Duo actively teaches (the ones that you have to translate back from the target language) are the formal versions.

[IceVajal]

I would prefer to learn both. And why not mark an answer as colloquial? Like with greetings which are marked as formal / informal.

[pawndemic]

The problem with the colloquial expresions comes to light when you try to apply them. To say the right thing in the right context in an adequate colloquial way is far from easy. And colloquialism is not colloquialism. There are certain grades. Some things you can say "on the street", some things you can only say to close friends, some things you only hear in certain circles of society and so far and so on. All these needs a lot of experience. Of course for a native speaker it is obiously what you should or should not say in a given context and envirement.

All that means: as a beginner you should avoid these traps. And because I think Duolingo is more for beginners or advanced beginners I my opinion this doesn't need necessarily to be covered by Duolingo.

However, I am like to understand all of these as well. But sooner or later you will learn them anyway.

[g-heike]

Honestly, in terms of learning colloquial vs. formal language, my experience has mostly been the opposite. I've been told by English native speakers, that while my English is very good, I speak like I'm trying to write an essay. Learning formal language is great if you want to write essays and polite e-mails, but it doesn't work for making friends or even to effectively communicate in the workplace. For that you need to learn colloquial expressions. I've also seen this at my current job. I work with a lot of people who've been in Austria for a few years and who have completet courses up to B2 level and wouldn't have a problem writing an essay about politics or reading a newspaper, but they all struggle to hold a conversation about everyday topics, because they don't understand enough of the colloquial language the german native speakers use. So I'm very much not convinced that learning formal language will be more useful to you if you are learning a language for something else than for fun.

Of course the translation alternatives should be gramatically correct, but I don't see the harm in allowing colloquial alternatives, especially if the versions Duo actively teaches (the ones that you have to translate back from the target language) are the formal versions.

I can well understand your reasoning, thank you for your experience on this.

Nevertheless, I think it is better for the beginner to know the formal address first and not:

• Hey Alter wie heißt du. Hey digger was geht

That was very exaggerated and I haven't found any such alternatives yet, but it still seems to me that there are far too many possible alternatives. Certain sentence combinations may be on the border of the correct, but extremely unusual, like:

• Deutscher bin ich.

• Engländerin ist sie.

We in German say:

• Ich bin (ein) Deutscher.

• Sie ist (eine) Engländerin.

[Dodoa]

I absolutely agree with you on those translations. They are unusual to the point where I would call them wrong everywhere outside of poetry and such where you might have a good reason to use them for emphasis.

[bookrabbit]

It is good to accept lots of colloquial answers as long as the main one they push is correct. I still come across too many suggested answers that are in English so cryptic I don't even know what is being said. This most recently in the English from Greek course. And I don't even know if reporting them does any good now that they got rid of the course builders:(
The best way to learn colloquial language is to watch tv in the target language, with subtitles preferably in that language if you understand it well enough to follow without them in your native language. That way you often see two ways to say the same thing as the subtitles don't match exactly and you see spellings for new words making them easier to remember.

[Corinnebelle]

Honestly, in terms of learning colloquial vs. formal language, my experience has mostly been the opposite. I've been told by English native speakers, that while my English is very good, I speak like I'm trying to write an essay. Learning formal language is great if you want to write essays and polite e-mails, but it doesn't work for making friends or even to effectively communicate in the workplace. For that you need to learn colloquial expressions. I've also seen this at my current job. I work with a lot of people who've been in Austria for a few years and who have completet courses up to B2 level and wouldn't have a problem writing an essay about politics or reading a newspaper, but they all struggle to hold a conversation about everyday topics, because they don't understand enough of the colloquial language the german native speakers use. So I'm very much not convinced that learning formal language will be more useful to you if you are learning a language for something else than for fun.

Of course the translation alternatives should be gramatically correct, but I don't see the harm in allowing colloquial alternatives, especially if the versions Duo actively teaches (the ones that you have to translate back from the target language) are the formal versions.

Well as long as the colloquialism aren't too regional that you are not understood everywhere. I would think regional colloquialisms would be best be learned later.

[trackerwannabe]

Of course for a native speaker it is obiously what you should or should not say in a given context and envirement.

It's not always obvious to me. I've had my share of faux pas in my native tongue.
That may be because, in this area, language issues start to fade in importance, and social and cultural ones begin to become more prominent.

[Dodoa]

Honestly, in terms of learning colloquial vs. formal language, my experience has mostly been the opposite. I've been told by English native speakers, that while my English is very good, I speak like I'm trying to write an essay. Learning formal language is great if you want to write essays and polite e-mails, but it doesn't work for making friends or even to effectively communicate in the workplace. For that you need to learn colloquial expressions. I've also seen this at my current job. I work with a lot of people who've been in Austria for a few years and who have completet courses up to B2 level and wouldn't have a problem writing an essay about politics or reading a newspaper, but they all struggle to hold a conversation about everyday topics, because they don't understand enough of the colloquial language the german native speakers use. So I'm very much not convinced that learning formal language will be more useful to you if you are learning a language for something else than for fun.

Of course the translation alternatives should be gramatically correct, but I don't see the harm in allowing colloquial alternatives, especially if the versions Duo actively teaches (the ones that you have to translate back from the target language) are the formal versions.

Well as long as the colloquialism aren't too regional that you are not understood everywhere. I would think regional colloquialisms would be best be learned later.

I think whether / when to learn regional colloquialisms depends on why you are learning the language. For example, in the case of most of my coworkers, I think it would have been appropriate to learn some local idiom right away since they moved to Austria before learning the language and then took classes to learn German here. So if you are taking a course to learn the language of a country in that country local colloquial expressions absolutely make sense to learn, since that's where you will likely use the language too. Of course if local idiom is taught it should be taught with the understanding that it may not be understood everywhere. Though to be honest, in many cases I couldn't tell you if colloquialisms I use would be understood in northern Germany for example, so why should language learners need to know.

This doesn't apply to Duolingo of course. Though I still think Duo should accept local colloquialisms (if someone reports them as missing), just not actively teach them. Because if, like in the case of my coworkers, you are learning a certain version of a language and you are supplementing your learning with Duo, you shouldn't have to worry if that new way of saying something you learned from your friends is just a local thing. Or if your native language isn't the "Standard" version used by Duo that makes some lessons extremely annoying. In the courses from English many sentence discussions are littered by Brits and Canadians complaining that the way they speak English is considered wrong by Duo and I often have similar feeling when it comes to the way I speak German.