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Use of the American Flag for the English language

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Daniel589120

Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

Okay,

I am not English, but it dawns on me that we are using the American flag for the English language on this site.

I know that Duo uses it on their site with the understanding that the site originates from the United States.

But why do we have to adhere to that convention here?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the English or the more recognizable UK (Union Jack) flag to identify the English language?

I request, as a point of discussion, that we entertain the use of the Union Jack or the English flag to identify the English language here on the DuoMe forums.

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Stasia
Poland

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Stasia »

This is a great segue to [mention]luo-ning[/mention]'s point that flags aren't languages - another example of an imperfect pairing between a language and a flag of a state.

I guess the use of British vs. American flag would boil down to which dialect/variety of English is favored on Duolingo? I believe Duolingo teaches American rather than British English, but I might be wrong (I never took English on Duolingo).

Native: :poland:; Fluent: :es:, :us:; Getting there: Image; Intermediate: :fr:; Beginner: :ukraine:

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Daniel589120

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

In my mind the English language is a product of the English people, even though the preferred usage on Duo is North American (in general), and would imagine that the British flag would be more appropriate to represent it.

I notice for example that the Spanish language on Duo, is represented by the Spanish flag, even though from my understanding, the preferred usage is also North American, so that convention is not followed strictly.

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Explorer
Portugal

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Explorer »

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:29 pm

In my mind the English language is a product of the English people, even though the preferred usage on Duo is North American (in general), and would imagine that the British flag would be more appropriate to represent it.

In that case one should use the flag of England (:england:) Never say a Scotsman they are English, you know :roll:

The choice of a flag or another to represent a language will always be questioned, especially when the language is spoken in several countries around the world. I understand that and I do agree with duo-ling's statement (flags are not languages). I'm afraid there's no simple solution to please everyone.

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hecate4stuff
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by hecate4stuff »

I'm wondering why we might not consider using the British flag for those speaking "British" English, especially in England, and the American flag for those (likely but not necessarily in the U.S.) speaking "American" English. This is like the distinction between Spanish as spoken in Spain (and often taught here in the U.S. in schools in the past) and as it's spoken in Latin America (which has it's own varied dialects of course.) Of course, you're right that "flags are not languages"; for now, I've just not chosen a flag and remain a free spirit :).

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User avatar
Daniel589120

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

hecate4stuff wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:43 pm

...for now, I've just not chosen a flag and remain a free spirit :).

I don't mean the flag you choose for yourself, I mean the flag the site uses to label a language that is used on the site.

In this case they are using the American flag, and in fact it looks like the weird cartoony icon of the American flag that Duo uses!

I am suggesting that the site consider using either the English flag (the Cross of St. George flag) or the British flag (the Union Jack) instead of the American flag, since DuoMe is not Duo anymore but a different site, which is actually registered in the EU, I thought it would make more sense to attribute the language to the people who actually developed it!

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luo-ning

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by luo-ning »

Daniel589120 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm

I thought it would make more sense to attribute the language to the people who actually developed it!

Well, English originally evolved from Old Norse, so I guess we should use Norway's flag. Mind you, much of the modern vocabulary comes from French, so perhaps le Tricolore is a better choice?

It's true the name of the language, English, derives from England, originally meaning "land of the Angles". But it was also the language of the Saxons, so it's really only a historical accident that it wasn't called Saxlish instead. Besides, Old English as spoken by the Anglo-Saxons started being spoken in the mid 5th century AD, whereas the modern St George's Cross (flag of England) only started being used around seven centuries later!

In any case, Old English is very far from modern English — it's certainly not understandable to modern English speakers who haven't spent lots of time learning it. And it's no closer to English as spoken in London or Manchester than it is to English as spoken in New York or Canberra. It's often said that even as recently as Early Modern English (Shakespeare's English), pronunciation was somewhat closer to "General American" than it was to England's "Received Pronunciation".

None of this means the US flag is a good choice; it's not. But it's certainly no worse of a choice than the English or British flags.

🦀 Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo 🏴‍☠️ Flags Are Not Languages

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CaitNicRun
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by CaitNicRun »

luo-ning wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:38 pm
Daniel589120 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm

I thought it would make more sense to attribute the language to the people who actually developed it!

Well, English originally evolved from Old Norse, so I guess we should use Norway's flag. Mind you, much of the modern vocabulary comes from French, so perhaps le Tricolore is a better choice?

It's true the name of the language, English, derives from England, originally meaning "land of the Angles". But it was also the language of the Saxons, so it's really only a historical accident that it wasn't called Saxlish instead. Besides, Old English as spoken by the Anglo-Saxons started being spoken in the mid 5th century AD, whereas the modern St George's Cross (flag of England) only started being used around seven centuries later!

In any case, Old English is very far from modern English — it's certainly not understandable to modern English speakers who haven't spent lots of time learning it. And it's no closer to English as spoken in London or Manchester than it is to English as spoken in New York or Canberra. It's often said that even as recently as Early Modern English (Shakespeare's English), pronunciation was somewhat closer to "General American" than it was to England's "Received Pronunciation".

None of this means the US flag is a good choice; it's not. But it's certainly no worse of a choice than the English or British flags.

Ye make goode poynts, sir. But the differences bytween English of the colonies and the Empire be mostly cosmetic.

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luo-ning

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by luo-ning »

CaitNicRun wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:42 pm

Ye make goode poynts, sir. But the differences bytween English of the colonies and the Empire be mostly cosmetic.

Hmm... Not sure if intentional, but I read this in a pirate accent. Well, the Jolly Roger is one flag choice I can support 🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️ 😂

🦀 Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo 🏴‍☠️ Flags Are Not Languages

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lrai
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by lrai »

I agree that a country flag isn't what we should use to denote a language. I teach English in China and for a very long time the Chinese government had a rule that only Native speakers of English could legally teach it. They considered the following countries to be Native English speaking countries: USA, England, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Well it was not something that some countries liked, South Africans argued they should be on the Native list, many from the Philippines and India also argued they too should be on the list since English was the majority language...in the end China had to give in. My feeling is if you speak English as your mother tongue then maybe you need to just put English and skip the flag for now. I use the USA flag b/c I am from the US and I speak English, but I am flexible, LOL

lrai
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Siobhan688078
Wales

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Siobhan688078 »

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:29 pm

In my mind the English language is a product of the English people, even though the preferred usage on Duo is North American (in general), and would imagine that the British flag would be more appropriate to represent it.

I notice for example that the Spanish language on Duo, is represented by the Spanish flag, even though from my understanding, the preferred usage is also North American, so that convention is not followed strictly.

The problem with the Union Jack is that not all people in the UK identify with it, in Wales, for example, there has been a hot debate about it for as long as I can remember. This is hardly surprising, as Wales is not represented on the Union Jack, and the Red Dragon of Wales is the only flag any true Welsh person is really proud to display. 8-)

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Daniel589120

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

Siobhan688078 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:29 am
Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:29 pm

... Wales is not represented on the Union Jack, and the Red Dragon of Wales is the only flag any true Welsh person is really proud to display. 8-)

That's true but I am talking about the English language and how it is represented by flag on this site

From my understanding the Welsh language is associated with the nation of Wales and is represented on this site and on Duolingo by a crude representation of the Welsh flag.

Also from my understanding, about half the people in Wales can speak English (to some extent or another), I don't think that half would really object to the Union Jack being used to represent the English language on DuoMe, any more than say anyone else from any part of the UK. I can't imagine them objecting to the English flag being used either.

I do think that more of them would be a little concerned with the language being represented by the flag of a former British colony.

Let's say that Duolingo had been set up and is operated in Jamaica, do you really think that they would use the Jamaican flag to represent the English language?

I would also imagine that if the site were in the Bahamas or New Zealand or any other predominately English speaking country that they would still use either the English flag or the UK flag to represent the language.

Additionally, the flag used here and on Duolingo is not actually the US flag but also another crude representation of the flag missing a few stripes and a lot of stars!

The English flag or even the Union Jack would be easier to represent and the Union Jack itself would be more recognizable of the two.

Last edited by Stasia on Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed broken quote
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luo-ning

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by luo-ning »

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:25 pm

about half the people in Wales can speak English (to some extent or another),

The vast majority of Welsh people speak English as their first language. Most also speak at least some Welsh, but usually not fluently.

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:25 pm

I don't think that half would really object to the Union Jack being used to represent the English language on DuoMe,

Well, if they're supporters of Welsh independence, many would object even to the existence of the Union Jack, given that it represents a "union" they don't recognize.

I do think that more of them would be a little concerned with the language being represented by the flag of a former British colony.

Why?

(In case it matters, I'm English.)

🦀 Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo 🏴‍☠️ Flags Are Not Languages

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Daniel589120

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

luo-ning wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:55 pm

Why?

Don't you think at least some of the other English people would be saying to themselves "What!" if for example there was a sign on a website that said somewhere "Learn English online here! and then only the Canadian Flag would be represented there?

Last edited by Daniel589120 on Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
luo-ning

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by luo-ning »

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:41 pm

Don't you think at least some of the other English people would be saying to themselves "What!" if for example there was a sign on a website that said somewhere "Learn English online here! and then only the Canadian Flag would be represented there?

I think using any country flag to represent any language is already a bad choice, because it leads to pointless debates like this one, and arguments like "I think most English people would think X, and most Welsh people would think Y" based on zero evidence. But I don't think any flag choice is worse than any other... beyond extreme and obviously terrible examples like using the flag of Imperial Japan to represent Japanese, or the Confederate Flag to represent English.

That's not to say the modern US state isn't evil... but it's no more evil than the modern British state (just more powerful).

🦀 Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo 🏴‍☠️ Flags Are Not Languages

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Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Basler Biker »

[mention]Daniel589120[/mention] It's a bit technical, but due to one missing closing ´[/quote]´ the quotes are not reflecting who said what. Please review/edit your post (your last and previous...) When done, your text should always be ouside any "quote/unquote" pair.. ;-) Thanks in advance.


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / learning :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

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Daniel589120

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Daniel589120 »

I didn't notice that Basler Biker, thanks, I've changed that!

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Siobhan688078
Wales

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Siobhan688078 »

Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:25 pm
Siobhan688078 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:29 am
Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:29 pm

... Wales is not represented on the Union Jack, and the Red Dragon of Wales is the only flag any true Welsh person is really proud to display. 8-)

That's true but I am talking about the English language and how it is represented by flag on this site

From my understanding the Welsh language is associated with the nation of Wales and is represented on this site and on Duolingo by a crude representation of the Welsh flag.

Also from my understanding, about half the people in Wales can speak English (to some extent or another), I don't think that half would really object to the Union Jack being used to represent the English language on DuoMe, any more than say anyone else from any part of the UK. I can't imagine them objecting to the English flag being used either.

I do think that more of them would be a little concerned with the language being represented by the flag of a former British colony.

Let's say that Duolingo had been set up and is operated in Jamaica, do you really think that they would use the Jamaican flag to represent the English language?

I would also imagine that if the site were in the Bahamas or New Zealand or any other predominately English speaking country that they would still use either the English flag or the UK flag to represent the language.

Additionally, the flag used here and on Duolingo is not actually the US flag but also another crude representation of the flag missing a few stripes and a lot of stars!

The English flag or even the Union Jack would be easier to represent and the Union Jack itself would be more recognizable of the two.

I see your point, put you obviously have no idea about what the situation is in the heartland of the Welsh-speaking people in Gwynedd. The Union Jack is almost taboo, whether representing the English language or not. 8-)

Last edited by Stasia on Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed broken quote
User avatar
luo-ning

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by luo-ning »

Basler Biker wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:55 pm

´[/quote]´

While we're at it, these need to be `backticks` rather than acute accents for Markdown to understand them as formatting. How to type backticks

🦀 Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo 🏴‍☠️ Flags Are Not Languages

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Siobhan688078
Wales

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Siobhan688078 »

luo-ning wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:51 pm
Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:41 pm

Don't you think at least some of the other English people would be saying to themselves "What!" if for example there was a sign on a website that said somewhere "Learn English online here! and then only the Canadian Flag would be represented there?

I think using any country flag to represent any language is already a bad choice, because it leads to pointless debates like this one, and arguments like "I think most English people would think X, and most Welsh people would think Y" based on zero evidence. But I don't think any flag choice is worse than any other... beyond extreme and obviously terrible examples like using the flag of Imperial Japan to represent Japanese, or the Confederate Flag to represent English.

That's not to say the modern US state isn't evil... but it's no more evil than the modern British state (just more powerful).

Exactly, and to add another point, you might as well use the EU flag for English, as for most Europeans in the EU English has become the lingua franca and the average level of English seems to be somewhat higher than the average British person - I keep watching the decline of foreign language teaching in all state schools in the UK, the pulling out of the Erasmus scheme after Brexit with dismay, but am not really surprised... 8-)

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Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Basler Biker »

luo-ning wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:31 pm
Basler Biker wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:55 pm

´[/quote]´

While we're at it, these need to be `backticks` rather than acute accents for Markdown to understand them as formatting. How to type backticks

unless I didn't want that to be formatted ;-)


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
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lrai
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by lrai »

okay how about we abolish all flags to represent a language? Too many wars have been fought over "flags" which are just pieces of cloth, and nothing to die for. I could explain what is worth dying for but not here.

lrai
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sandygaletoo
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by sandygaletoo »

Siobhan688078 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:55 pm
luo-ning wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:51 pm
Daniel589120 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:41 pm

Don't you think at least some of the other English people would be saying to themselves "What!" if for example there was a sign on a website that said somewhere "Learn English online here! and then only the Canadian Flag would be represented there?

Exactly, and to add another point, you might as well use the EU flag for English, as for most Europeans in the EU English has become the lingua franca and the average level of English seems to be somewhat higher than the average British person - I keep watching the decline of foreign language teaching in all state schools in the UK, the pulling out of the Erasmus scheme after Brexit with dismay, but am not really surprised... 8-)

There is also a decline in the US in the teaching of foreign languages in public schools. But even worse, is the lack of English grammar now taught in schools. Someone seems to think that grammar is learned by osmosis, or some such thing ...

Anyways, it easy to use the country flag for a language which is only native to one country. There does not seem to be an easy answer when so many countries share the same native language. So why not the EU flag?? :)

sandygaletoo
Native: :us:
Learning: :de: :fr:

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Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by Basler Biker »

sandygaletoo wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:32 am
Siobhan688078 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:55 pm
luo-ning wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:51 pm

... as for most Europeans in the EU English has become the lingua franca

Someone seems to think that grammar is learned by osmosis, or some such thing ...

So why not the EU flag?? :)

I think the quotes got a bit messed up.. sorry to whoever wrote some of the above...

... "as for most Europeans in the EU English has become the lingua franca " for people in the street it may be,
but for the real Europeans, those that meet in the European Council and so (I was there too), there has never been more Nationalism with as without the EU in place. An EU meeting would never take place, even start, if there was not a Danish, German, and Italian interpreter present ;-) You can image what it is if 28 EU countries would ask to be represented in their own language.
Hence they were able to agree on the 7 main EU languages for meetings/discussions. As a result all bigger and smaller meeting rooms had minimum 7 interpreter "loges" for 2 speakers each ;-)

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages ... pean_Union

The EU asserts that it is in favour of linguistic diversity. This principle is enshrined in the EU Charter of fundamental rights (art. 22) and in the Treaty on European Union (art. 3(3) TEU).

For day-to-day use there are 3 languages: English, French, and German. Where German is the least used...
hence:

German media have called the dominance of English and French a discrimination against German (which is the most spoken mother tongue of the EU) and a violation of the regulations pertaining to the EU's working languages


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
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sandygaletoo
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by sandygaletoo »

Basler Biker wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:58 am
sandygaletoo wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:32 am
Siobhan688078 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:55 pm

So why not the EU flag?? :)

I think the quotes got a bit messed up.. sorry to whoever wrote some of the above...

... "as for most Europeans in the EU English has become the lingua franca " for people in the street it may be,
but for the real Europeans, those that meet in the European Council and so (I was there too), there has never been more Nationalism with as without the EU in place. An EU meeting would never take place, even start, if there was not a Danish, German, and Italian interpreter present ;-) You can image what it is if 28 EU countries would ask to be represented in their own language.
Hence they were able to agree on the 7 main EU languages for meetings/discussions. As a result all bigger and smaller meeting rooms had minimum 7 interpreter "loges" for 2 speakers each ;-)

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages ... pean_Union

The EU asserts that it is in favour of linguistic diversity. This principle is enshrined in the EU Charter of fundamental rights (art. 22) and in the Treaty on European Union (art. 3(3) TEU).

For day-to-day use there are 3 languages: English, French, and German. Where German is the least used...
hence:

German media have called the dominance of English and French a discrimination against German (which is the most spoken mother tongue of the EU) and a violation of the regulations pertaining to the EU's working languages

Thank you very much for this information!

sandygaletoo
Native: :us:
Learning: :de: :fr:

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lrai
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by lrai »

sounds like a mess...(the EU). They should do what the UN does, I believe they still use headsets and you can tune your headset to the language of choice. I also believe (and I may be wrong) that most UN business is done in English but the person speaking can use their native language.

Sandy: Good point about the grammar not being taught now in most US schools, it is the main reason we have issues with kids who can't read or write well. However to be fair this problem isn't new...it's been around since the late 1960s and has only been in decline to the point where most kids can't identify a part of speech or a sentence structure. Teaching abroad improved my grammar and I had to do a lot of self-learning because my education in English was so poor. I grew up in the 1960s (Primary School) and we were taught with the NEW English method of that time (which was stupid). We didn't learn noun, verb, adjective, adverb, instead each had a number and so (in order) we learned 1, 2, 3, 4. I had no clue what I was doing. Years later is when I taught basic grammar to myself. I teach it now to my students and do trainings on it with my foreign teaching staff because many of them still struggle. The worst are the Native speakers! Instead of worrying about what flag to use we should worry about making sure grammar is being taught. (that is not directed at you..just a comment). :)

lrai
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sandygaletoo
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by sandygaletoo »

lrai wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:42 pm

sounds like a mess...(the EU). They should do what the UN does, I believe they still use headsets and you can tune your headset to the language of choice. I also believe (and I may be wrong) that most UN business is done in English but the person speaking can use their native language.

Sandy: Good point about the grammar not being taught now in most US schools, it is the main reason we have issues with kids who can't read or write well. However to be fair this problem isn't new...it's been around since the late 1960s and has only been in decline to the point where most kids can't identify a part of speech or a sentence structure. Teaching abroad improved my grammar and I had to do a lot of self-learning because my education in English was so poor. I grew up in the 1960s (Primary School) and we were taught with the NEW English method of that time (which was stupid). We didn't learn noun, verb, adjective, adverb, instead each had a number and so (in order) we learned 1, 2, 3, 4. I had no clue what I was doing. Years later is when I taught basic grammar to myself. I teach it now to my students and do trainings on it with my foreign teaching staff because many of them still struggle. The worst are the Native speakers! Instead of worrying about what flag to use we should worry about making sure grammar is being taught. (that is not directed at you..just a comment). :)

I agree with you that the teaching of grammar is much more important than the flag. I, like you, went to primary school in the 1960s, and whilst we did learn some grammar, there was much that was not touched upon. Or, was presented in a manner which was not innate to actual learning. I also revisited English grammar, and found that reviewing it vastly improved my understanding of the foreign language grammar, and the actual learning of the language. In my mind, the ability to compare and contrast is a key element in learning new languages, and the understanding of one's native grammar is critical.

Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. :)

sandygaletoo
Native: :us:
Learning: :de: :fr:

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lrai
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by lrai »

Dear Sandygaletoo:

Are you a teacher of English??? Just curious. Yes, it wasn't until I took the time to really learn English grammar that learning a foreign language started to make more sense. Now I stress it with the teachers I train. If you don't grasp the grammar and structure you can't really get fluent. I also agree that compare and contrast is one of the essay types that we really need to teach students to do well. Fact vs Opinion is the other type of essay that they really need to learn. These two types of essays are critical to being fluent. Just my opinion after many years of doing IELTS and TOEFL instruction.

lrai
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dochawk
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by dochawk »

It seems to me that the obvious solution here is to create a US-> British English , and a reverse tree.

And then we could add a Canadian course, and . . .

:lol:

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sandygaletoo
United States of America

Re: Use of the American Flag for the English language

Post by sandygaletoo »

lrai wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:28 pm

Dear Sandygaletoo:

Are you a teacher of English??? Just curious. Yes, it wasn't until I took the time to really learn English grammar that learning a foreign language started to make more sense. Now I stress it with the teachers I train. If you don't grasp the grammar and structure you can't really get fluent. I also agree that compare and contrast is one of the essay types that we really need to teach students to do well. Fact vs Opinion is the other type of essay that they really need to learn. These two types of essays are critical to being fluent. Just my opinion after many years of doing IELTS and TOEFL instruction.

No, I am not a teacher of English. But, I really like understanding topics. I actually work in IT 😊

sandygaletoo
Native: :us:
Learning: :de: :fr:

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