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Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

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angsthasen
Canada

Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

I'm a little frustrated that the Duolingo Latin course doesn't recognise that women might exist who are either 20-40 years of age or over 40 years old. Lewis and Short's 1879 Latin Dictionary includes women in the substantive (using an adjective as a noun) for both iuvenis and senex; what sense does it make to teach it as exclusively male-gendered in this context?

(Don't try to tell me that "virgō" and "anus" are equivalents for women; both of those seem to reference reproductive status rather than age, which is an entirely different frame of reference.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:17 am

I'm a little frustrated that the Duolingo Latin course doesn't recognise that women might exist who are either 20-40 years of age or over 40 years old. Lewis and Short's 1879 Latin Dictionary includes women in the substantive (using an adjective as a noun) for both iuvenis and senex; what sense does it make to teach it as exclusively male-gendered in this context?

(Don't try to tell me that "virgō" and "anus" are equivalents for women; both of those seem to reference reproductive status rather than age, which is an entirely different frame of reference.)


Welcome to Duome Latin Forum!!

The translation of iuvenēs and senēs will be gender free in my native language, even if they are singular, also in my other two languages. My English is not very good but I wonder if this problem is more to do with English itself rather than Latin in Duolingo.

According to Wiktionary, "Man" in English means both “human (of any gender)” and “adult male”, which developed after Old English’s distinct term for the latter (wer) fell out of use, has been criticized since at least the second half of the twentieth century.


Any corrections and ideas from others are highly appreciated.

Happy learning!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

I don't think this is a problem of the English term being more inclusive than we assume, though that's a good point. One of the exercises Duolingo offers is a forced-choice "Iuvenis [solus/sola] habitat" with "sola" being marked as the error.

IuvenisSolaNonHabitat.png
IuvenisSolaNonHabitat.png (119.49 KiB) Viewed 650 times
Last edited by angsthasen on Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:50 pm

I don't think this is a problem of the English term being more inclusive than we assume, though that's a good point. One of the exercises Duolingo offers is a forced-choice "Iuvenis [solus/sola] habitat" with "sola" being marked as the error.


Hi!
It's probably depends how native English speakers would translate "The young man live alone." though,


"Luvenis sola habitat." is a valid sentence in Latin, so you can report it.

This is not very related to your question, but I also had a "gender" problem in Latin, not in Duolingo, but the sentence I created.


Lydia est agricola laetus. (Lydia is a happy farmer.)

agricola is masculine word, so cannot use laeta. Although, in Latin, grammatical gender is not related to biological gender (though at times they can align), but it is a classification system that allows us to determine what form the modifying adjective should take (more on this below). So this is a valid sentence. It is just like this sentence in Duolingo.

Novum Eboracum est urbs Americana.

Novum Eboracum is neuter, while urbs Americana is feminine.

Happy Learning!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

I wish I had a Latin grammar-checking application. My intuition is that Lydia est laeta et Lydia est agricola ergo Lydia est agricola laeta; I believe that both "happy" and "farmer" modify Lydia. Google Translate (which is terrible for Latin) suggests "Agricola laetus est" and "Stephanus laetus agricola est", but "Lydia laeta agricola est"

angsthasen
Canada

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

It's probably depends how native English speakers would translate "The young man live alone." though,

Honestly, a native English speaker would generally not think of most people between 20 and 40 years of age, a iuvenis, as a young man (or, more neutrally, a young adult) at all. The United Nations defines a “youth” (a young man or woman) as a person aged 15 to 24. Libraries and booksellers offer "young adult" literature aimed at readers aged 12 to 18. MIT's "Young Adult Development Project" defines young adulthood as 18 to 22 or 18 to 25. At the extreme end, the lexicographers at Oxford include in the definition of "young man", "1.1 A form of address used by an adult to a boy, often in annoyance."

These are dangers implicit in doing translation on a word-for-word basis, as if the scope of a word in one language is the same as its scope in another. :-)

If they had prompted, "The young man lives alone", the only correct answer would be "Iuvenis solus habitat." The exercise I referenced, though, was a fill-in-the-blank subject/adjective agreement exercise, without a provided translation.

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:38 pm

I wish I had a Latin grammar-checking application. My intuition is that Lydia est laeta et Lydia est agricola ergo Lydia est agricola laeta; I believe that both "happy" and "farmer" modify Lydia. Google Translate (which is terrible for Latin) suggests "Agricola laetus est" and "Stephanus laetus agricola est", but "Lydia laeta agricola est"


[addition] I forgot to mention this, but the google translation you found, "Lydia laeta agricola est." is totally works, if it means "Happy Lydia is the farmer.", but not "Lydia is a happy farmer." In other words, if "laeta" is modifying "Lydia", it is a correct sentence, although, imo, normally they would write "Lydia laeta est agricola." "laeta" is not modifying "aglicola".

What I learnt is, in English (in fact in any languages), a modifier is a word, phrase, or clause that functions as an adjective or adverb to provide additional information about another word or word group. A modifier is also known as an adjunct.

Adjectives modify nouns. In Latin, adjectives always must agree with nouns in number, case, and gender.


・Lydia est agricola laetus.
(Lydia is a happy farmer.)  

For this case, "happy" modifies "farmer".
Lydia is feminine, while, agricola is masculine. The gender, number and case of the modifier, "laetus" must agree with agricola, so it remains as laetus.

__________________________________________________________________________________  

・Novum Eboracum est urbs Americana. ---from Duolingo
(New York is an American city.)


For this case, "American" modifies "city".
"Novum Eboracum" is neuter, while, "urbs" is feminine. The gender, number and case of the modifier, Americanus, must agree with urbs, so it will be Americana.


・Leo et lupus sunt bestiae ferae. ---from LLPSI by Hans H. Ørberg
(Lion and wolf are wild beasts.)

For this case, "wild" modifies "beasts".
Both leo and lupus are masculine, while bestia is feminine. The gender, number and case of the modifier, ferus, must agree with bestiae, so it will be ferae".

Last edited by McGonnagle on Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

...If they had prompted, "The young man lives alone", the only correct answer would be "Iuvenis solus habitat." ...

Hahah...If fact, this is the answer that I was expecting from you! ;-) It's so difficult with the English word, "man". It could be either way if it was translated from my native and other two languages.

"Luvenis sola habitat." is still a grammatically correct sentence in Latin (although, it may not a valid translation for "The young man lives alone."), so if you want "gender equity education" in Duolingo, you can report it, you know? (But I just don't know how to translate it into English, though. Maybe "The young women lives alone." ??)

Happy Learning!!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

Honestly, a native English speaker would generally not think of most people between 20 and 40 years of age, a iuvenis, as a young man (or, more neutrally, a young adult) at all. The United Nations defines a “youth” (a young man or woman) as a person aged 15 to 24. Libraries and booksellers offer "young adult" literature aimed at readers aged 12 to 18. MIT's "Young Adult Development Project" defines young adulthood as 18 to 22 or 18 to 25. At the extreme end, the lexicographers at Oxford include in the definition of "young man", "1.1 A form of address used by an adult to a boy, often in annoyance."

I think "youth" in English has very wide and obscure meaning. I wonder if the definition, "youth" in UN, is more closer to "adulescens" in Latin. In my opinion, "iuvenis" is more like a person who is capable of having a family and making a income to support the family or who is capable of fighting in war. In other words, a person who has "stamina" as a full‐fledged member of society, or who is capable of economical action.

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

In my opinion, "iuvenis" is more like a person who is capable of having a family and making a income to support the family or who is capable of fighting in war.

Yes, my impulse is to look at the age range of 'iuvenis' and think, 'this is a good age to conscript somebody'.

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

Yes, my impulse is to look at the age range of 'iuvenis' and think, 'this is a good age to conscript somebody'.

So, what do you think Duo should call that in English, since you say "young man" is incorrect translation for "iuvenis"? "young adult"?

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

The exercise I referenced, though, was a fill-in-the-blank subject/adjective agreement exercise, without a provided translation.

Ah, okay, sorry, I missed this part. Now I understand what you mean. I think you can suggest this to Duo.

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by angsthasen »

So, what do you think Duo should call that in English, since you say "young man" is incorrect translation for "iuvenis"? "young adult"?

I don't think the "young" part is fixable, to be honest. It's an artifact of one culture drawing the boundaries around a word in a different place than another does. Another example is that we translate the French word "elles" as "they" despite the English word "they" being more expansive. English does not have a third-person pronoun for a group of females.

As for the "man" part, I would like to see DuoLingo follow the precedent it sets when accepting "magistra" or "magister" as equally correct translations for "teacher" or "habes" and "habetis" as equally correct for "you have". I think the best available solution would be allowing "iuvenis" to accept any of "young man", "young woman", "young person" or "young adult" as correct, and have a note in the tips about the scope of youth differing between Roman and Modern Anglophone perceptions.

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: Fēminae iuvenēs, fēminae senēs

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:30 pm

So, what do you think Duo should call that in English, since you say "young man" is incorrect translation for "iuvenis"? "young adult"?

I don't think the "young" part is fixable, to be honest. It's an artifact of one culture drawing the boundaries around a word in a different place than another does. Another example is that we translate the French word "elles" as "they" despite the English word "they" being more expansive. English does not have a third-person pronoun for a group of females.

As for the "man" part, I would like to see DuoLingo follow the precedent it sets when accepting "magistra" or "magister" as equally correct translations for "teacher" or "habes" and "habetis" as equally correct for "you have". I think the best available solution would be allowing "iuvenis" to accept any of "young man", "young woman", "young person" or "young adult" as correct, and have a note in the tips about the scope of youth differing between Roman and Modern Anglophone perceptions.

Sorry for the late reply. Congrats, now you seem to know what and how to report specifically about "Iuvenis non solus habitat." :)

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

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