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en: Did you like dinner?Duolingo forum topic: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27990585
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Would it also work in present tense, e.g. "casi me siento mal por tener que comerla" or "casi me siento mal por haberla comido"? (Yes, it may say something different, I'm just curious if these would be correct and natural sentences.)
Native: Intermediate: Lower intermediate: Beginner: Absolute beginner:
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)
'I almost felt bad due to having to eat it'? Yes, those look good.
I think I got too carried away trying to figure out 'I was almost sorry' to consider alternatives. That said, even had I been fully alert, I doubt I'd have thought to use 'por' there. That's another thing I'm going to have to try to remember.
Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?
Native language: . Novice getting towards rookie: . Beginner: , .
I truly, sincerely, 1000% recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:
If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.
I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.
ㆍespañol ㆍgramática ㆍSentenceDiscussion
Amazonia is now becoming a carbon source.
Elysium - Master of the rainforest
· ·
gmads wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pmI truly, sincerely, 1000% recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:
If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.
I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.
I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.
The problem wasn't me seriously thinking 'comerse' was reflexive, it was that I couldn't figure out what it actually was so started going through all the different types of pronominal verbs that I could think of. Reading the other posts more closely, I'm thinking it's a dative verb?
Although, is the reason that the 'me' in comérmela is classed as a pronominal pronoun because I'm the one both feeling bad and doing the eating? After all, in the example with the dog eating the plants, the 'nos' looked from the description like it was being called to act as an indirect object pronoun rather than a pronominal one? And if you search for 'dative in Spanish', the results, or at least the ones I saw, are for 'le' rather than 'se'?
Even in the one you you linked is mostly about 'le', and while "Se nos van los niños" does use a pronominal verb, it made it clear that the dative part was the 'nos'.
Or, wait, was the 'me' in 'comérmela' in fact an indirect object 'me'?
As usual, I've ended a post somehow knowing both more and less than when I started.
And while I think about it, thank you, @gmads, you often make me think about things, even in English. I read your post about Italian pronominal verbs too (when it popped up as the most recent post in the English section), and it made me think about the verb 'to run' a bit more. While I always knew that words like 'wither' and 'hither' were directional adverbs with the meanings of 'to where' and 'to here', for some reason I hadn't considered the 'to me' in "He ran to me" in the same way, instead thinking of it as an indirect object even though I should've known it wasn't.
That said, there are forms like "I ran him hard" that absolutely do use 'to run' transitively.
Native language: . Novice getting towards rookie: . Beginner: , .
Jimbo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pmgmads wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pmI truly, sincerely, 1000% recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:
If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.
I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.
Wow, that post, "el perro…" was my second or third post after I registered here, and since I wrote it after the questions and answers had settled in the thread, I thought it had gone unnoticed
Just as in poetry writers take a certain liberty and bend the rules, sometimes I do the same when trying to explain certain grammatical aspects, as I did in that post. I hope it managed to correctly transmit the idea.
Jimbo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pmAs usual, I've ended a post somehow knowing both more and less than when I started.
And while I think about it, thank you, @gmads, you often make me think about things, even in English. I read your post about Italian pronominal verbs too (when it popped up as the most recent post in the English section), and it made me think about the verb 'to run' a bit more. While I always knew that words like 'wither' and 'hither' were directional adverbs with the meanings of 'to where' and 'to here', for some reason I hadn't considered the 'to me' in "He ran to me" in the same way, instead thinking of it as an indirect object even though I should've known it wasn't.
Yes, I've also felt that way. One comes to understand a particular aspect, but immediately comes an avalanche of new questions. It takes time for things to settle a little bit.
I agree, usually one begins to question their own language when starting to learn another language. It definitely happened to me after I started studying Italian
My latest grammatical thread. Maybe it could be of help to you with your Spanish because the concepts are basically the same. I've been trying to be very careful and methodical to make the concept as clear and simple to understand because after having written a few posts about the indirect object etc, I suddenly came to realize that studying these particular topics is almost like watching a magician making a very slow and close trick in front of us…
and not being able to see where and when the trick happened Therefore, I am trying to be like the masked magician, revealing the secrets!
Yes, verbs are not inherently transitive or intransitive, instead, they can be used or not in either, or both ways. The example you offer is correct but quite exceptional. The same happens in Spanish, for example with the verb "vivir" (to live), which is "defined" as intransitive, though there's a case where it can be used in a transitive way
Jimbo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pmgmads wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pmI truly, sincerely, 1000% recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:
If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.
I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.
I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.
The problem wasn't me seriously thinking 'comerse' was reflexive, it was that I couldn't figure out what it actually was so started going through all the different types of pronominal verbs that I could think of. Reading the other posts more closely, I'm thinking it's a dative verb?
Although, is the reason that the 'me' in comérmela is classed as a pronominal pronoun because I'm the one both feeling bad and doing the eating? After all, in the example with the dog eating the plants, the 'nos' looked from the description like it was being called to act as an indirect object pronoun rather than a pronominal one? And if you search for 'dative in Spanish', the results, or at least the ones I saw, are for 'le' rather than 'se'?
Even in the one you you linked is mostly about 'le', and while "Se nos van los niños" does use a pronominal verb, it made it clear that the dative part was the 'nos'.
Or, wait, was the 'me' in 'comérmela' in fact an indirect object 'me'?
Beware with the terminology! I would really suggest you took some time to make a summary table or a mind map to get your terms correct as then you will be to swim more easily through these concepts.
there are only pronominal verbs, there really aren't "types" of pronominal verbs
there aren't dative verbs, just pronominal verbs (regarding the topic being considered, of course)
the dative term refers only to the indirect pronouns: in Latin there are cases: vocative, accusative, dative, genitive, ablative, but in Spanish they disappeared, they were substituted by pronouns, so, the pronoun is named depending on the complement being substituted: direct object pronouns = accusative pronouns, and indirect object pronouns = dative pronouns
there are no pronominal pronouns; from the term pronouns we get others like: pronominal particles (particles that work as pronouns) and pronominal verbs (verbs linked or related to pronouns)
direct and indirect personal pronouns exist for the six persons (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, they): {
me, te, lo/la, nos, os/les, los/las }; { me, te, le, nos, os/les, les }
Hopefully the following ten pointers can act as the tl;dr version of any series of articles regarding this topic.
Amazonia is now becoming a carbon source.
Elysium - Master of the rainforest
· ·