Remove ma'am as a word in English. Topic is solved

[gmads]

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality. I have heard such voices on airplanes and in hotels and shops in large cities on the west and east coasts of the United States.

That used to be the consensus.

In Japanese, you have to use honorific words, humble words, not only polite words most of the time when you are outside the house, besides you are just with your close friends. but I don't think it leads the country to a hierarchical society.

Well, not a hierarchical society in the strictest sense, as that of India, but not that long ago Japan had still a feudal society.

• The Four-Tiered Class System of Feudal Japan

Society might have changed, but the language still reflects that strict structure of the past.

We just respect each other's position at that right moment almost by "acting". Of course sometimes some people mistakenly believe or act that they are better than others though most people wouldn't buy that. There might be some people buy that very seriously.

Acted or not, I think most would agree that Japan's society is still very rigid and "hierarchical" in many ways: one must know its place and not stray much from there.

[McGonnagle]

@gmads　　　

What is your definition of modern hierarchical society?

[gmads]

@gmads　　　

What is your definition of modern hierarchical society?

My comment was not so much oriented to an ancient vs. modern idea, but to what I would understand to be a rigid HS like that of India, ruled by the concept of castes, so no matter what you do or don't, there is no way to escape from where you were born. To me, that's as rigid as it can get. Then, as the underlying concepts change structures start to get less rigid. I'd say that the next level downward would be that of structures under strong rulings, may they be political or religious. In this HS some at least are able to change their status, either by chance or wits, but at least this starts to become a possibility. A feudal society would be in this category, I'd say. It is like a military system, a society under a chain of command, so to speak. You have the supreme ruler, then the army, then different lower levels until one gets to the lowest levels, the common people. Is a feudal society a strong HS? From my point of view, definitely. How easy would it have been for a person born as a farmer to change that and reach a higher level? Not impossible, but very difficult. Japan was under a feudal system for many centuries, and it was not until a relatively short period of time that that changed. I'd say that habits, social habits, and language take longer to disappear. Wouldn't you agree?

[McGonnagle]

@gmads

It's interesting! I think when Japan was under the feudal system, where status and roles were fixed by hierarchical relationships, honorifics were also used within a fixed and absolute framework. 　　

However, the language change over times, and even if some words themselves do not change, the recognition and understanding of the words change. In modern Japanese society, the meaning of honorifics has changed to based on "mutual respect". Honorifics came to be used reciprocally and relatively according to the relationship between individuals.

"Mutual respect" here does not mean ignoring the existence of differences in the various positions and roles of people in society. Basically, it can be a difference in age, experience, knowledge, skills, or position within a social group (e.g. senior vs. junior, teacher vs. learner, service provider vs. recipient, or job ranks within a company).

In addition, in Japanese language, whether or not one can use honorifics well in one's speech is a sure indication of one's level of education. You can also use honorifics as your sword and shield. Therefore, honorifics are also a tool for maintaining your own dignity.

As well as Japanese honorifics have changed in this way, I wonder if the perception of the word "ma'am" have changed as well to some people who use the word or who do not find this offensive?

[gmads]

As well as Japanese honorifics have changed in this way, I wonder if the perception of the word "ma'am" have changed as well to some people who use the word or who do not find this offensive?

Yes, as the articles I put as reference show, that is the case. People have fully gone into denial, no one wants to be called according to how they look, now everyone wants to be called as how they see themselves

[rudi]

Frau and Fraulein in German is a similar situation. Fraulein is offensive, one of the reasons it's offensive and no longer used is the exact reverse situation as ma'am.

Well, that's not as simple as it seems to you. As a native I can tell you. "Fräulein" is the diminutive form of "Frau". It was used to distinguish unmarried to married women. It's true that in the 70s some people had the impression it would mean disrespect because of the insinuation of being "too young to know" or even "not young anymore, but has no man: seems to be strange", and the pendant would be "Herrlein", but doesn't exist. But that was not the majority, although a lot.

On the contrary: "This process was somewhat problematic, at least during the 1970s to 1980s, since many unmarried women of the older generation insisted on Fräulein as a term of distinction, respecting their status, and took the address of Frau as offensive or suggestive of extra-marital sexual experience." (wiki)

"In 2008, the Allensbach Institute for Public Opinion Research surveyed Germans on their acceptance of so-called "taboo words," including Fräulein. 47 % of those surveyed said they used Fräulein themselves. 44% said they did not use it, but were not bothered by it either. Only 7% found its use disturbing or repulsive." (wiki)

"In some cases it is still used: The word "Fräulein" has sometimes survived as a form of address for a waitress, but even this usage - like its male counterpart "Herr Ober!" - is becoming rarer in Germany." (wiki)

And this is only a little part of a complex topic. Don't read only the english wiki, but the German too. (Automatic translator makes it accessible.) There you get a lot more of information, especially about the heritage of the word. It is very interesting.

Nowadays the word has almost vanished. But that's not because we were urged to do, but by thy way we live. We do not marry that young anymore, so it is normal to be still unmarried or to live together without marriage. More often then in former times some people even wear no ring, although they are married. So before you ask "Are you married?", which would be a little strange as the first question to a stranger, you simply use "Frau" and you can't do wrong.

So the language evolved by itself, by the way we change the way we live and not by the ban of somebody.

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead? In this special case it might be looking a little bit strange because of the following "u" -> "Fraeulein", but it looks very much better than "Fraulein". In addition, the "au" is spoken completely different than "äu": "Au" like in "mount" and "äu" like in "joy". "A" like in "aunt"; "ä" sometimes almost like in "cat" (e.g. "Gäste"), sometimes like in "trade" (e.g. "Mädchen").

For me personally, using the wrong form is a sign of disinterest and lack of accepting the other languages individuality. Because this is not a single fail, but seems to be very common. Somehow like "Hey, I know I'm wrong but let's be honest, that points are useless. Just stop using them and do it like we do. We know better." That's why I always try to take care of points, accents (special characters), háčeks (hooks) and so on. I write the ' in that's and it's and let's although I'm not used to do this in my language and I often have to go back and correct it. Because for me it's a sign of making effort to be polite. As much I hate it when somebody is doing it wrong by disinterest, as much I do love it when somebody is at least trying to be correct. It has not even to be correct, as long as I see somebody is trying! But I often miss the effort, the trying, especially with our "ä".

Maybe you now consider me as harsh, but I can tell you, I'm a very friendly person. Whenever somebody tries to speak (or write) German, I'm very delighted and don't care about the errors. I make errors, too. I'm aware that it's a difficult language, especially for English natives. Even Mark Twain gave up. But please use the "ä" (for instance with the NumLock keys and 0228 or 0196) or simply write "ae", then I'm very fine with it and am glad somebody thought about.)

[gmads]

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead?

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

The problem lies not in "ae" being write to hard, I'd say, but in knowing that "ä" in German can be also written as "ae." Only people that have taken at least an introductory course to German would know that.

I do get what you are saying, but in the end it is just a regular noun, and if anyone is supposed to know how to write it correctly, well, then that same argument could be applied to the whole written language, and then to each and every language The general problem is that most people lack interest even in their own language. The aberrations one gets to see in written Spanish… from native speakers!

Anyway, from my point of view, one should not get that bothered with regular words, another issue, however, is when people might write the name of your country —or any other of national or patriotic symbol— in a wrong way. That I do see as a total lack of respect, thus, totally unacceptable. But hey, what can we do but suffer them.

[MoniqueMaRie]

"Fräulein" is the diminutive form of "Frau". It was used to distinguish unmarried to married women. It's true that in the 70s some people had the impression it would mean disrespect because of the insinuation of being "too young to know" or even "not young anymore, but has no man: seems to be strange", and the pendant would be "Herrlein", but doesn't exist. But that was not the majority, although a lot.

On the contrary: "This process was somewhat problematic, at least during the 1970s to 1980s, since many unmarried women of the older generation insisted on Fräulein as a term of distinction, respecting their status, and took the address of Frau as offensive or suggestive of extra-marital sexual experience." (wiki)

"In 2008, the Allensbach Institute for Public Opinion Research surveyed Germans on their acceptance of so-called "taboo words," including Fräulein. 47 % of those surveyed said they used Fräulein themselves. 44% said they did not use it, but were not bothered by it either. Only 7% found its use disturbing or repulsive." (wiki)

I wonder why wikipedia doesn't mention the following aspect (that I learnt only recently):

"In den 50ern war der Begriff weniger ein Unwort als ein Lebensstil. „Fräulein“ wurde zum Synonym für Freiheit und Selbstbestimmtheit. Der kriegsbedingte Männermangel und das daraus resultierende Singledasein spielte dabei ebenso eine Rolle wie die Tatsache, dass Frauen mit der Unterzeichnung der Heiratsurkunde die Aufgabe großer Teile ihrer Persönlichkeitsrechte besiegelten. Da blieb manche lieber ledig."
found here: https://www.welt.de/iconist/partnerscha ... gkeit.html

"In the 50s, the term was not so much a non-word as a lifestyle. "Fräulein" became a synonym for freedom and self-determination. The war-induced lack of men and the resulting single existence played just as much a role as the fact that women sealed the surrender of large parts of their personal rights by signing the marriage certificate. Some preferred to remain single."

[McGonnagle]

Yes, as the articles I put as reference show, that is the case. People have fully gone into denial, no one wants to be called according to how they look, now everyone wants to be called as how they see themselves

I'm curious to know that if they demand that to strangers?

[nudelfressa]

"Ma'am" is something only Americans trying to imitate stilted British English would say, so it's wrong by definition, but Duolingo being targeted mainly at Americans or foreigners wanting to learn American English, they will not remove it.

[nudelfressa]

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality.

In the US of A maybe.

In 25 years of living in UK, I was called "Sir" by a shop attendant today for the first time and I was quite upset. When random strangers call you "Sir" in UK, it's because they want to insult you or have a fight.

[McGonnagle]

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality.

In the US of A maybe.

In 25 years of living in UK, I was called "Sir" by a shop attendant today for the first time and I was quite upset. When random strangers call you "Sir" in UK, it's because they want to insult you or have a fight.

Would you mind telling me the situation?

[gmads]

On the contrary: "This process was somewhat problematic, at least during the 1970s to 1980s, since many unmarried women of the older generation insisted on Fräulein as a term of distinction, respecting their status, and took the address of Frau as offensive or suggestive of extra-marital sexual experience." (wiki)

I wonder why wikipedia doesn't mention the following aspect (that I learnt only recently):

"In the 50s, the term was not so much a non-word as a lifestyle. "Fräulein" became a synonym for freedom and self-determination."

Very interesting, and quite logical when one thinks about it. Great opportunity for women, or at least some of them, to get free from certain establish expectations. Like a domino effect, how things start to connect!

[gmads]

Yes, as the articles I put as reference show, that is the case. People have fully gone into denial, no one wants to be called according to how they look, now everyone wants to be called as how they see themselves

I'm curious to know that if they demand that to strangers?

They do. That's the whole issue. If it were something just among them, well, let them call themselves as they see fit, but when they want society to change language just because of them, that's when things go sideways. After all, they are a minority! The problem is, that as long as people start to comply, for one reason or another, that will change. Yes, people rather comply than hold their ground

[gmads]

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality.

In the US of A maybe.

When random strangers call you "Sir" in UK, it's because they want to insult you or have a fight.

Are really those the only reasons? I would definitely doubt that. Couldn't it be the other way round? After all, communication is a two-way interaction.

[McGonnagle]

Yes, as the articles I put as reference show, that is the case. People have fully gone into denial, no one wants to be called according to how they look, now everyone wants to be called as how they see themselves

I'm curious to know that if they demand that to strangers?

They do. That's the whole issue. If it were something just among them, well, let them call themselves as they see fit, but when they want society to change language just because of them, that's when things go sideways. After all, they are a minority! The problem is, that as long as people start to comply, for one reason or another, that will change. Yes, people rather comply than hold their ground

I'm just simply curious, but I wonder if you never question who you are, regardless of how you look, does it really matter what strangers think you are, as long as their intention is good?

[Deleted User 4833]

"Ma'am" is something only Americans trying to imitate stilted British English would say, so it's wrong by definition, but Duolingo being targeted mainly at Americans or foreigners wanting to learn American English, they will not remove it.

I don't know where you get the idea that is only used by Americans trying to imitate British English.
That is totally untrue.

It's used in many contexts and in most cases I would say those who use the word have no idea of trying to imitate British English.

[Deleted User 5705]

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead?

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

The problem lies not in "ae" being write to hard, I'd say, but in knowing that "ä" in German can be also written as "ae." Only people that have taken at least an introductory course to German would know that.

I do get what you are saying, but in the end it is just a regular noun, and if anyone is supposed to know how to write it correctly, well, then that same argument could be applied to the whole written language, and then to each and every language The general problem is that most people lack interest even in their own language. The aberrations one gets to see in written Spanish… from native speakers!

Anyway, from my point of view, one should not get that bothered with regular words, another issue, however, is when people might write the name of your country —or any other of national or patriotic symbol— in a wrong way. That I do see as a total lack of respect, thus, totally unacceptable. But hey, what can we do but suffer them.

.

[Deleted User 4833]

I, for one, had no knowledge at all that ä should be written as "ae" for those who don't have the ability to type ä on their computers. The first time I learned this is when I read it in this thread. I'm sure I'm in the majority of English speakers who didn't or don't know this. So why be offended that someone wrote fraulein instead of fraeulein? The best you can do is educate them about something they didn't know in the first place. Truth be told, I've rarely had the occasion to write the word in any case.

[Corinnebelle]

I, for one, had no knowledge at all that ä should be written as "ae" for those who don't have the ability to type ä on their computers. The first time I learned this is when I read it in this thread. I'm sure I'm in the majority of English speakers who didn't or don't know this. So why be offended that someone wrote fraulein instead of fraeulein? The best you can do is educate them about something they didn't know in the first place. Truth be told, I've rarely had the occasion to write the word in any case.

I suppose the ae is like adding those extra yods and vavs in Hebrew, that aren't there when you use nikkud. Not absolutely necessary but definitely helpful. Of course I didn't know about this ae business form Fraeulein until now either. Ae in English makes me think of the sound of e in bee, but it has a different sound in German.

[gmads]

I, for one, had no knowledge at all that ä should be written as "ae" for those who don't have the ability to type ä on their computers. The first time I learned this is when I read it in this thread.

Exactly!

[gmads]

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead?

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

I can easily make ä on PCs using the 10-keypad shortcuts. And most of the other symbols I need.

Really? On any keyboard and any keyboard configuration?

I come from the DOS prehistoric times and so do I, even in more ways than just using keyboard shortcuts. The question is, how many people know how to do that? One can neither expect nor force people to learn and do this. It may not seem this way, but it requires quite some technological knowledge.

[gmads]

I, for one, had no knowledge at all that ä should be written as "ae" for those who don't have the ability to type ä on their computers.

Of course I didn't know about this ae business form Fraeulein until now either.

We are becoming legion!

[Corinnebelle]

I can easily make ä on PCs using the 10-keypad shortcuts. And most of the other symbols I need.

What are the ten keypad shortcuts?

[Jimbo]

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead?

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

The problem lies not in "ae" being write to hard, I'd say, but in knowing that "ä" in German can be also written as "ae." Only people that have taken at least an introductory course to German would know that.

I do get what you are saying, but in the end it is just a regular noun, and if anyone is supposed to know how to write it correctly, well, then that same argument could be applied to the whole written language, and then to each and every language The general problem is that most people lack interest even in their own language. The aberrations one gets to see in written Spanish… from native speakers!

Out of curiosity, which would you rather see from people who don't have an 'ñ' on their keyboards, 'n' or 'ny'?

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality.

In the US of A maybe.

In 25 years of living in UK, I was called "Sir" by a shop attendant today for the first time and I was quite upset. When random strangers call you "Sir" in UK, it's because they want to insult you or have a fight.

Well, not the only reasons, but it does sound odd to hear from a shop assistant. I guess that if they needed to attract your attention somehow, then they might've thought that calling out 'mate' before the conversation starts, while acceptable between customers, might be a bit too informal between a shopper and shop worker?

I, for one, had no knowledge at all that ä should be written as "ae" for those who don't have the ability to type ä on their computers. The first time I learned this is when I read it in this thread. I'm sure I'm in the majority of English speakers who didn't or don't know this. So why be offended that someone wrote fraulein instead of fraeulein? The best you can do is educate them about something they didn't know in the first place. Truth be told, I've rarely had the occasion to write the word in any case.

I suppose the ae is like adding those extra yods and vavs in Hebrew, that aren't there when you use nikkud. Not absolutely necessary but definitely helpful. Of course I didn't know about this ae business form Fraeulein until now either. Ae in English makes me think of the sound of e in bee, but it has a different sound in German.

I didn't know about the 'ä'/'ae' think either, and reading it though, I think I've probably been mispronouncing 'Fräulein' too.

The pronunciation of 'ae' in English is because it had once been 'æ', but that letter fell out of use. Same the words that use 'oe' because they used to use 'œ'. But yes, very different to 'ä'.

[Deleted User 4833]

I don't really think adding extra yuds and vavs in Hebrew is the same as the ae issue in German, either.
The extra yuds and vavs are just spelling variations. Nikkud isn't really used in most modern Hebrew texts and writing.

[gmads]

(By the way I find it exceedingly more offensive, when people write "Fraulein" instead of "Fräulein". I know that nobody has an "ä" on the keyboard except us, but is it that hard, to write "ae" instead?

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

Out of curiosity, which would you rather see from people who don't have an 'ñ' on their keyboards, 'n' or 'ny'?

The "n" is more than fine, I wouldn't mind it at all: niño/nino, cañón/canón, caña/cana, as context allows to understand the actual intention: me ofrecieron un jugo de cana, easy to understand that the person intended to say "caña." If I were to use a double letter combination, for some particular cases, like "año," I would use an "i" after the "n," like so: anio. I could suggest "gn" but unless familiar with the Italian language, many would not understand that combination: agno. I would stick with the "i," it gets a closer phonetic sound.

[Corinnebelle]

@gmads We have el nino and el nina weather formations. Nobody puts squiggles on them.

[Deleted User 5705]

In US keyboards that is generally true. In other ones that may or may not be the case. In LA keyboards they are because in Spanish we have the "ü," as in "paragüitas" or "pingüinos."

I can easily make ä on PCs using the 10-keypad shortcuts. And most of the other symbols I need.

Really? On any keyboard and any keyboard configuration?

I come from the DOS prehistoric times and so do I, even in more ways than just using keyboard shortcuts. The question is, how many people know how to do that? One can neither expect nor force people to learn and do this. It may not seem this way, but it requires quite some technological knowledge.

.

[Deleted User 5705]

I can easily make ä on PCs using the 10-keypad shortcuts. And most of the other symbols I need.

What are the ten keypad shortcuts?

.