Remove ma'am as a word in English. Topic is solved

[khajit]

How can duolingo be taken seriously.

I was very confused to see that ma'am is a thing in duolingo. So i clicked the link in the app for the first time to see that, obviously it's already been reported several times years ago.

Yet it remains, and threads locked. The word is shortened from the French madam, and is only spoken only in southern states of the US, where it is used incorrectly, and in the UK from the royal butler to the king or queen. Basically it's only used in areas of extreme formality.

Having reached my 5th decade of life and never encountered this word, it seems strange that it remains after being reported several times.

People learning English may pick up this word and not be understood in conversation. Duolingo is teaching people incorrect English. Please remove it, it makes the app look like it doesn't know what it's doing.

[eI000yo]

Hi @khajit !
Most likely you are right.
But you have to email Duolingo, or send them a complain. See please How do I report a bug?, or try their social media.
Duome Request forum is for Duome related topics only.
I've moved your post to a more suitable subforum.

[Deleted User 4833]

I'm curious as to how ma'am is being used incorrectly in Duolingo and in normal speech, since there are no examples given in the OP. I still hear ma'am used in English, and not just in the southern states of the US. I'd love an explanation of this complaint, as I'm really curious as to what the problem is.

[Explorer]

I thought "ma'am" was correct in English, just like "sir", but it's also true that I've mostly visited Southern states (Florida and Louisiana). I would like to know if it sounds strange to say that in other places.

[Deleted User 4833]

I thought "ma'am" was correct in English, just like "sir", but it's also true that I've mostly visited Southern states (Florida and Louisiana). I would like to know if it sounds strange to say that in other places.

I don't think it sounds strange to say it. I've heard it in many places, and not just in the South. {Although it's true that it's more common in the South.) That's why I'm confused by the original post. Without context of how it was used that the original poster is objecting to, I'm not sure what the problem is.

[Explorer]

I don't think it sounds strange to say it. I've heard it in many places, and not just in the South. {Although it's true that it's more common in the South.) That's why I'm confused by the original post. Without context of how it was used that the original poster is objecting to, I'm not sure what the problem is.

I was also a bit confused when I read the title of the post (remove ma'am as a word in English). I'm not a native speaker and my English is far from perfect, but I'm sure I've heard it many times before.

[John Little]

In School, (a long time ago) male teachers were"sir" and female teachers "ma'am". I remember being very embarrassed when I called one teacher "mum" in class by mistake. Could have been worse, it could have been a man

[IceVajal]

Some friends from Upper State NY use(d) it, and that's not the South. And even some Canadian using it as a polite form to address one.
Duolingo isn't always correct, but in this case I don't see the problem. Might be the way it's used in the sentence....

[khajit]

I'm curious as to how ma'am is being used incorrectly in Duolingo and in normal speech, since there are no examples given in the OP. I still hear ma'am used in English, and not just in the southern states of the US. I'd love an explanation of this complaint, as I'm really curious as to what the problem is.

It's incorrect in any usage that duolingo has in it's examples.

Unless you are addressing a female police officer, a woman in the armed forces, the Queen or a baroness. It is incorrect, even then it is a matter of choice whether to want to do so or not.

In some places in the US ma'am is used for a woman you don't know, but you assume is older or married or both, or in some places someone you do know. Assumptions on a persons age or status, stopped in the 1960's during the sexual revolution because some people can find it offensive. To have equality in language is important, because if it does not exist in the words we speak it will not exist in the world we live in. Whether or not those people that are offended need a thicker skin is another argument entirely and not relevant here, however ma'am was never used in English to address woman who is not nobility.

It is incorrectly used in some parts of the US as they don't care if they offend or not and live in an extremely old fashioned and conservative society. You would be laughed at as a stupid foreigner if you use it anywhere outside of southern US. It's incorrect, old fashioned, potentially offensive, and just plain wrong.

If you don't know how someone wants to be addressed, don't assume, ask. If you have the gumption to ask so that you know how to address them, then do so, however to address someone is never used outside of institutions (schools, hospitals etc) where formal language is still used by some, as we are not living in "the Game of Thrones". The Idea that a person deserves a special title when spoken to is extremely old fashioned, and from a by gone era.

The correct way is to not address them directly at all, but if you don't feel comfortable not addressing them due to your old fashioned culture, then simply just ask the person how they like to be addressed. 99.9% will just say by their first name. I understand that outside of Europe these old ways of speaking still exist, but equality is something to strive for, so please try and not speak like someone from the pre-industrial revolution.

To use Ma'am or Sir for that matter brings status into the conversion and therefore politics, whether someone is your superior. No one is your superior, and you are not superior to anyone else either. It's incorrect, rude and pathetic.

If you are not comfortable doing that do not address them at all "excuse me" followed by what you want to say.

[back4morelater]

To use Ma'am or Sir for that matter brings status into the conversion and therefore politics, whether someone is your superior. No one is your superior, and you are not superior to anyone else either. It's incorrect, rude and pathetic.

And do you also have the same objection to the use of lady in this way to since I'm sure I've heard ' Hey lady ...' seeing as the same argument should apply there too?

I use the none contracted form and used it more with regard to respect than any hangover from a time of more rigid social hierarchy. Can you suggest another term seeing speaking to my elders since I'm not about to use 'hey you'

Also I wonder how the French feel about this given their use of madame where I might use mrs

[MustafaOuz526752]

Any word can be offensive if you force it enough. You are reading too much into it, I am afraid.

[khajit]

To use Ma'am or Sir for that matter brings status into the conversion and therefore politics, whether someone is your superior. No one is your superior, and you are not superior to anyone else either. It's incorrect, rude and pathetic.

And do you also have the same objection to the use of lady in this way to since I'm sure I've heard ' Hey lady ...' seeing as the same argument should apply there too?

I use the none contracted form and used it more with regard to respect than any hangover from a time of more rigid social hierarchy. Can you suggest another term seeing speaking to my elders since I'm not about to use 'hey you'

Also I wonder how the French feel about this given their use of madame where I might use mrs

Can't say i've ever heard anyone say "hey lady" outside of some 1980's film set in New York. Regardless it's slang at best. You don't need to point out someones gender or status. the year is 2023 not 1823.

Simply use Excuse me. then say what you want to say. And why do you assume they are your elders? Because they look older? Maybe they are younger than you but with a medical condition. At the end of the day use whatever you want, and if you offend someone for saying or not saying something, then deal with it. If an old person in the US is offended because I don't call them Ma'am then they are old fashioned and or elitist, and need to grow up and stop living in the past.

Duolingo is teaching people, incorrect English that is a fact. Ma'am and Sir are not used in English only in areas of extreme formality, It's only still used in the south of the US due to the legacy of slavery. It's sad and offensive.

You don't need a title, it's superfluous.

[khajit]

Any word can be offensive if you force it enough. You are reading too much into it, I am afraid.

No it can't. That is a statement from someone that can't come up with a valid argument.

the incorrect use of Ma'am and Sir comes from when the white slave owners, wanted to be referred to as nobility by the people they had enslaved. That's why the use case changed in American English from the correct use case in British English.

After slavery it continued to be used, more so in areas where people were enslaved and is still used incorrectly in those areas to this day.

For duolingo to use it is offensive and more to the point incorrect.

[Jimbo]

I will say that as far as contractions go, I haven't heard that one - certainly a lot less than I've heard 'madam' (neither of which, incidentally, are modes of address associated with nobility - that would be 'milady' - rather they're terms that are supposed to convey respectability, key word: 'supposed').

[khajit]

I will say that as far as contractions go, I haven't heard that one - certainly a lot less than I've heard 'madam' (neither of which, incidentally, are modes of address associated with nobility - that would be 'milady' - rather they're terms that are supposed to convey respectability, key word: 'supposed').

https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family

Ma'am is a way to address the Queen. Im pretty sure Milady is french and from Game of Thrones, never heard that at all, other than servants on period TV shows saying My Lady, but saying Me instead of My, due to a poor education.

Going back further in history, than when it was adopted for a way for slave to address their "masters", it originates from when the french speaking Norman vikings invaded England. English speaking peasants were forced to say Sieur (Sir) or Madam (later abbreviated to Ma'am) to their Norman overlords.

Ma'am or madam, and sir are not used everyday speech in English outside of formality involving nobility. To be called Sir you need to be knighted.

Regardless of where it comes from and it's links to slavery, it's not correct English and should not be taught as if it were.

[Stasia]

In some places in the US ma'am is used for a woman you don't know, but you assume is older or married or both, or in some places someone you do know.

I've heard it all over the US: East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, and Southwest.

I understand your opinion on how it can be perceived as offensive - I know I was a bit surprised the first time I was called a Ma'am - but that's not an issue with Duolingo, that's an issue with the English language.

Duolingo represents how people speak, and yes it is more American English based than British English, because its creators are American.

If you want to start a revolution and erase Ma'am from speech, go for it, although I'm not sure it's achievable. I got used to it and now I'm even a bit flattered by it. It is a way to express your respect towards a woman.

[Steve579062]

I have often said that you can say what you want to people if you say it the right way. Having worked in retail, wholesale and with people for at least fifty years I have used Sir and Madam. I have never had to use of Ma'am.
It seems very dated, very America and very under used in the UK. It just highlights to me the poor quality of the language that Duolingo is teaching me.
It's a complete waste of time and energy complaining to them. They are all experts with degree's and higher education. They know best.

[Corinnebelle]

Unless you are addressing a female police officer, a woman in the armed forces, the Queen or a baroness. It is incorrect, even then it is a matter of choice whether to want to do so or not.

If you have the gumption to ask so that you know how to address them, then do so, however to address someone is never used outside of institutions (schools, hospitals etc) where formal language is still used by some,

It's seems to me that's the way the police force/covid health officer, some trades people, the doctor, the phone callers from India etc. address people. Without going into ethics it might be handy to know the word so when someone addresses you with the word, you know what they mean. If it's demeaning to you, I'm sorry.

It's actually really old dating to 1600s.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ma'am

Not that I want to say too many ma'am's or sirs, but I understand it is a polite form of address and something I may use occasionally.

[Deleted User 4833]

I have often said that you can say what you want to people if you say it the right way. Having worked in retail, wholesale and with people for at least fifty years I have used Sir and Madam. I have never had to use of Ma'am.
It seems very dated, very America and very under used in the UK. It just highlights to me the poor quality of the language that Duolingo is teaching me.
It's a complete waste of time and energy complaining to them. They are all experts with degree's and higher education. They know best.

Madam sounds a lot more dated to me than ma'am. I've almost never heard (or been called) "madam" in a store. I have been called ma'am. I admit I was a bit taken aback when I was in my early 20s and store employees started calling me ma'am (am I old enough to be a ma'am, I thought? ), but I was never offended.

And by the way, ma'am did not originate from slavery. It's a contraction of "madam" which was once a way of addressing a married woman. It goes back a very long time, and it was never only used between slave and master. When I was a kid, a girl I was friends with who was from the South (North Carolina) was taught to address all adult women as ma'am, it was meant as a form of respect to her mother and other women.

[Deleted User 4833]

To use Ma'am or Sir for that matter brings status into the conversion and therefore politics, whether someone is your superior. No one is your superior, and you are not superior to anyone else either. It's incorrect, rude and pathetic.

And do you also have the same objection to the use of lady in this way to since I'm sure I've heard ' Hey lady ...' seeing as the same argument should apply there too?

I use the none contracted form and used it more with regard to respect than any hangover from a time of more rigid social hierarchy. Can you suggest another term seeing speaking to my elders since I'm not about to use 'hey you'

Also I wonder how the French feel about this given their use of madame where I might use mrs

I'll be honest, my daughter objects to being called a "lady", whereas I come from a generation where, in a group of woman, we'd address the group as "ladies" (whether in an email or to get the attention of the group of women). But to my daughter it brings up certain negative stereotypes about woman that she doesn't like. I don't associate those negative connotations or stereotypes with the word "lady". So there's definitely a difference of opinion about the use of the word "lady". I've learned not to use it with my daughter.

[Deleted User 4833]

Oh, and "milady" predates The Game of Thrones by more than a few centuries. It did come from French apparently. Etymology online says the OED describes it as "A continental rendering of 'my lady', used as an appellation in speaking to or of an English noblewoman or great lady." The usage of the word goes back to at least the 1700s.

[Corinnebelle]

Oh, and "milady" predates The Game of Thrones by more than a few centuries. It did come from French apparently. Etymology online says the OED describes it as OED as "A continental rendering of 'my lady', used as an appellation in speaking to or of an English noblewoman or great lady." The usage of the word goes back to at least the 1700s.

Madam, ma'am's full form comes from ma dame, my lady in French.

[Deleted User 4833]

Oh, and "milady" predates The Game of Thrones by more than a few centuries. It did come from French apparently. Etymology online says the OED describes it as OED as "A continental rendering of 'my lady', used as an appellation in speaking to or of an English noblewoman or great lady." The usage of the word goes back to at least the 1700s.

Madam, ma'am's full form comes from ma dame, my lady in French.

Yes, that's what I found too, when I searched its origin.

[khajit]

Oh, and "milady" predates The Game of Thrones by more than a few centuries. It did come from French apparently. Etymology online says the OED describes it as "A continental rendering of 'my lady', used as an appellation in speaking to or of an English noblewoman or great lady." The usage of the word goes back to at least the 1700s.

The game of thrones reference is a joke, I know it's probably lost on the internet, but rest assured I don't think language evolved from HBO.

In Current modern English for the 21st Century, on an App we have on our smart phones, and soon to be neural implants. The use of the word Ma'am is a joke. There is no place for status in language. Respect is earned not assumed. And if the intention of this word is respect then i suggest caution, because someone in Britain if addressed as Ma'am could take it as disrespect and or sarcasm.

If someone were to address my mother as ma'am I would take that as them saying my mother is entitled like a Queen and it would be insulting.

[khajit]

Unless you are addressing a female police officer, a woman in the armed forces, the Queen or a baroness. It is incorrect, even then it is a matter of choice whether to want to do so or not.

If you have the gumption to ask so that you know how to address them, then do so, however to address someone is never used outside of institutions (schools, hospitals etc) where formal language is still used by some,

It's seems to me that's the way the police force/covid health officer, some trades people, the doctor, the phone callers from India etc. address people. Without going into ethics it might be handy to know the word so when someone addresses you with the word, you know what they mean. If it's demeaning to you, I'm sorry.

It's actually really old dating to 1600s.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ma'am

Not that I want to say too many ma'am's or sirs, but I understand it is a polite form of address and something I may use occasionally.

Yes as I suggested earlier in the thread it's root comes from when old french enters the English language after the Norman Viking conquest of 1066. That's when the second Latin source enters English. They meld and become middle English around the time you mentioned, the time of Shakespeare.

But it's not the only error in duolingo, there are quite a few of them, this was just one that was so of the wall that it needed to be said.

As for Sir, if I hear it said to me, it's met with hostility, because it assumes the receiver is naive and open to manipulation. Both have no place in modern English. Save it for ceremony and consign it to history.

[Stasia]

I have been called ma'am. I admit I was a bit taken aback when I was in my early 20s and store employees started calling me ma'am (am I old enough to be a ma'am, I thought? ), but I was never offended.

That's what I thought, too, when it was directed at me fir the first time... I was in my early 30's and it was a server in the restaurant, around 18 years old, so yes, from his point of view I was a dinosaur.

The use of the word Ma'am is a joke. There is no place for status in language. Respect is earned not assumed.

Most languages would disagree. Many, many languages have differing verb forms for formal and informal communication. Which form to use depends on the age of the person you are talking to, how familiar you are with them, and the setting/situation.

English is certainly much less formal in this regard (I pulled a lot of my hair in despair trying to get Americans to memorize that they need to use "usted" in Spanish).

And if the intention of this word is respect then i suggest caution, because someone in Britain if addressed as Ma'am could take it as disrespect and or sarcasm.

If someone were to address my mother as ma'am I would take that as them saying my mother is entitled like a Queen and it would be insulting.

And that goes back to American English vs British English. It must sound so weird to you, but if you ever travel to the US, you will hear Sir/Ma'am, starting from the airport.

The issue whether Duolingo should teach American English, or British English, or Australian English, or one of the South African English varieties, or all of the above and more, is a subject for another discussion.

[khajit]

Most languages would disagree. Many, many languages have differing verb forms for formal and informal communication. Which form to use depends on the age of the person you are talking to, how familiar you are with them, and the setting/situation.

English is certainly much less formal in this regard (I pulled a lot of my hair in despair trying to get Americans to memorize that they need to use "usted" in Spanish).

And that goes back to American English vs British English. It must sound so weird to you, but if you ever travel to the US, you will hear Sir/Ma'am, starting from the airport.

The issue whether Duolingo should teach American English, or British English, or Australian English, or one of the South African English varieties, or all of the above and more, is a subject for another discussion.

Yes I have heard it said and it sounds wrong because it is wrong. I know America is a little behind on social issues compared to Europe and that it is still dealing with the issues of civil rights, equality and fairness. That obviously shows up in their version of English spoken there.

You mention those countries, but English is the most spoken second language on the planet. with a total of 1.47 billion fluent speakers, 330m of which are in the US, that's only 22%, even if you take it that all Americans use ma'am, 78% of fluent speakers don't use it.

But compared to the speakers of English across the world, American English is in the minority and ma'am is not even used universally there. American English is not considered a new language branch like Scots but a dialect of English. And as for it's use in the USA and it's links to slavery, they should be ashamed to use it.

Progress is progress and duo-lingo should not try and stop it using antiquated words and ideas. You mention other languages would disagree. Sorry but all relevant languages are old fashioned by their nature, but also by there nature they will/are chang/ing for the better.

Frau and Fraulein in German is a similar situation. Fraulein is offensive, one of the reasons it's offensive and no longer used is the exact reverse situation as ma'am. So if you want to be respectful, to those around you, stop saying Ma'am.

[IceVajal]

Well, I'm German and I would be happy, if the tax office would call me Fräulein, coz they always call me Herr! And I was born as a woman and tried to get it fixed for almost 40 years. Sure, things change, but you can't force Duolingo to change. Perhaps they do, but Duome can't change Duolingo.

[gmads]

Duolingo is teaching people incorrect English. Please remove it, it makes the app look like it doesn't know what it's doing.

I recently suggested that the "Title" for these forums be changed because it could lead to confusion as these forums do not belong to Duolingo —nor the participants work for them. Duome and Duolingo are different entities:

Sure, things change, but you can't force Duolingo to change. Perhaps they do, but Duome can't change Duolingo.

Therefore, regarding your request, the following remains the best advice:

Hi @khajit !
Most likely you are right.
But you have to email Duolingo, or send them a complain. See please How do I report a bug?, or try their social media.
Duome Request forum is for Duome related topics only.

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*** changing with times

I don't see you point of view as mistaken in any way. The understanding of the world has changed, the protocols and ways of speaking have always been changing, but especially more so in these fast-paced times.

• Is it rude to call a woman "ma'am"? (Quora)

• How ‘ma’am’ went from being a respectful word for some – but polarizing for others (2023)

  “Ma’am” is generally considered to be a polite term to address a woman, but depending on the region or context, it can mean the exact opposite.
  
  When a woman is called “ma’am,” even by a well-meaning stranger, it can send a specific and unwanted social message.

• Do You Still Call People Sir or Ma’am? Stop it! (2021)

  It’s true that we’ve been using formal titles for years, but these days, many English speaking cultures are becoming less formal.
  
  Whether you agree with this shift in formality isn’t important and it’s something you can’t control. Your job isn’t to be the “language police,” but rather to understand how to use words to communicate as effectively as possible.
  
  Alternative #1 – Omit it
  Alternative #2 - Use their name (if you know it)

• Please Don't Call Me 'Ma'am' (2010)
  
  

I do have, however, two observations about a couple of contradictions in your comments:

1. regarding titles being old-fashioned
2. regarding people's response to how they are called… or not
   
   

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*** titles being old-fashioned

Regarding titles being old-fashioned you have contradicted yourself, though I don't see this as a matter of logic but of not taking into account how this same topic applies to other language-related aspects.

The Idea that a person deserves a special title when spoken to is extremely old fashioned, and from a by gone era.

You don't need to point out someones gender or status. the year is 2023 not 1823.
[…]
You don't need a title, it's superfluous.

I definitely don't think that those are actual truthful statements in this 2023. In many English-speaking countries —particularly— the situation is precisely the opposite, and there is an ongoing war because of that: people are demanding to be called exactly the way they want to be called (regardless of tradition and language rules).

• Heated debate on gender pronouns and free speech in Toronto

• Gender ideology a 'pervasive' and 'toxic' influence in western culture: Matt Walsh

• Should There Be a Limit to Gender Identities? | Good Morning Britain

So, we have actually arrived to a stricter title-enforcing-era, where anyone can demand whatever title they want to have, like… "please don't address me as he you must address me as sweet fluffy nebula"

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*** people's response to how they are called or not called

I see this particular point as a more serious problem. I will only reference the following post, but there are others expressing the same idea.

If an old person in the US is offended because I don't call them Ma'am then they are old fashioned and or elitist, and need to grow up and stop living in the past.

[…] Ma'am and Sir are not used in English only in areas of extreme formality, It's only still used in the south of the US due to the legacy of slavery. It's sad and offensive.

Therefore, independently of whether one uses the term (second paragraph) or not (first paragraph), someone, somewhere, will certainly get offended because of it

If someone wants and is going to get into the "please respect me" game, then that person should show the same courtesy to everyone else; no exceptions allowed.

— What am I?
— Well, I see you as a cisgendered man…
— I am not a cis-anything…
— If I may assume…
— I am not a cis-anything… I'm just a man!
— Remember you are a cisgendered man…
— No, I am not a cisgendered anything!
— But hang on…
— What does "cis" mean?
— Well, that means you were born the way you identify…
— No, I'm just born a man!
— But someone that transitions…
— Why do you insist on calling me something I am not?!

Otherwise, there is no point in debating and trying to enforce protocolary actions because the following "rule" should then apply to each and everyone (once again, no exceptions allowed):

Whether or not those people that are offended need a thicker skin is another argument entirely and not relevant here

And just to make the logic behind really clear, because it is relevant:

• If people that get offended for not being called ma'am need a thicker skin, then [sorry to say], but people that get offended for being called ma'am also need a thicker skin
  
  

We humans tend to always like things one-sided, and that is why fallacies often arise.

Anyway, if I were on your side of the fence I wouldn't fight much over this: the term ma'am will certainly vanish because even if people disagree and are unwilling to stop using it, they'll end up complying because there's nothing worse than being on the politically incorrect side

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  ㆍenglish ㆍgeneral ㆍdebate ㆍinteresting

[McGonnagle]

I thought that the words "ma'am" and "sir" convey the feeling of warm hospitality. I have heard such voices on airplanes and in hotels and shops in large cities on the west and east coasts of the United States.
My friend was surprised at first because she thought they called her "Mama". 　　

In Japanese, you have to use honorific words, humble words, not only polite words most of the time when you are outside the house, besides you are just with your close friends. but I don't think it leads the country to a hierarchical society. We just respect each other's position at that right moment almost by "acting". Of course sometimes some people mistakenly believe or act that they are better than others though most people wouldn't buy that. There might be some people buy that very seriously.