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[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @dakanga We seem to be inundated with word sources.

We have the

  • Duolingo Wiki (has definitions)
  • PDF by Multiwerp (has definitions)
  • Memrise courses (has definitions)
  • Github by Liuch (no definitions)

OK...What I am proposing here will be difficult and will have trade-offs - but I am interested in your POV.

I have thought about this for a while. I am prepared to spend some time writing a script for this. It is possible to get all conjugations from Pealim for any particular word. We can use a semantic similarity score to match the definitions with the ones on Pealim. I cannot guarantee how accurate this will be. We can remove any duplicate words on a particular skill as some words are conjugations of the same word.

We need to pick one of these lists - but these lists will all be more incomplete than our spreadsheet. IMO this is the main tradeoff. The Duolingo Wiki is missing some skills (it might be outdated). The Multiwerp PDF is a bit outdated. The Memrise course is a bit outdated. So they are all missing some vocab.

To complicate further - learning ALL the conjugations - construct, absolute when people are starting will be much more difficult than the Duolingo approach which is to sort of phrase them in. The alternative is we ONLY use the conjugations that the list provides. This is probably the better approach...but this will be incomplete. A halfway approach would only take words from the same line on Pealim.

My view is we take these words from the Wiki. The wiki seems the most up-to-date? But it seems to be from the beta. The main question is then how much of the course has changed from the beta?

This decision will significantly alter the scope/scale of the project. So I want to hear from both of you before I continue.

What do you think?

EDIT: Some different conjugations use the same letters - this means I can't parse out which letters refer to which conjugation - this means we would have to get ALL the conjugations of every word - which is less than ideal. Sorry!

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Wed May 17, 2023 1:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
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dakanga

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by dakanga »

I am sure you won't mind if I come back to this ... perhaps in a days time (?) To give my mind time to think.

It is a great idea !

Including all the other work you in this community have been doing.
I know this will benefit so many people.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@dakanga @Corinnebelle Ran into a major roadblock. This basically stops my plan. I'm really sorry - it looks like we are back at square 1.

The two main issues are how multiple conjugations on separate rows have the same letters and how word similarity scores are not producing particularly reliable results, given there are multiple meanings for one word.

I will strive to get to 25% done on our collective sheet by the end of this week.

https://github.com/JacobWeinbren/Memrise-Duolingo - You are more than welcome to check the code (under test.py).

Image

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I think that might work for nouns with a little oversight. בצל can mean an onion or in shadow. Wiki only has like the infinitive of the verbs they teach. Like לכתוב בשביל כותב You're working very hard on this list! :) I don't believe any words were added since beta.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

The transliteration program always puts a little vowel for the schewa sheva, (looks like this בְ, those two dots under the vet.) I am removing them if Pealim or the other Wikitionary doesn't show that in the pronunciation. Just something to look out of for.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@corinnalearns Is there a style you prefer from this list?

https://alittlehebrew.com/transliterate/

In fact - the schema model lets you modify the schema.

https://hebrewtransliteration.app/#schema-modal

Is there a schema modification you would like us to use going forwards? If you send me the file of the downloaded schema, I will use it going forwards. E.g. we can remove the vocal shewa?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband It's actually called a sheva. Got the names mixed up. I can play with the styles. The transliteration is pretty good. Sheva is something that means no vowels sometimes and a vowel sometimes so I don't know how a transliteration program could figure that out. Occasionally the nekkudot are wrong and I have to change that but not often. Probably when there are several words spelt the same and pronounced differently.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Sometimes I'll copy the nekkudot from Pealim; if there is a mistake in the transliteration, and because they have vowels they will use dagesh to indicate double letters whereas modern Hebrew uses extra letters to indicate "vowel" consonants or dagesh. You also get extra yods sometimes.
i.e.
חַוָּה ~ חווה

Please note I am no expert.

Just a little tip, from what I'm learning adverbs don't have gender.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I like the style you have chosen for the transliteration. Simple, but I think it is best that a machine can do.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Return a list of the Simplified Israeli Transliteration for the following words. ח is ch. Use apostrophes where necessary. One per line. Nothing else. Double-check your answers.

בּוֹדֵק
בּוֹדְקִים
בּוֹדֶקֶת..

https://deepai.org/chat

Thinking of using this prompt to get accurate (enough) transliterations for all the words. This will take a while as I can only do 100-200 words at a time.

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Fri May 19, 2023 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:13 pm

@PtolemysXX I agree - largely. I think earlier in the course it's fine. For each letter - there is a skill where it is in introduced

e.g
Words 1/2/3 for Hey and Vav
There is for Lamed
Prepositions 1 for Bet/Vet
Conjunctions for Shin
Adverbs for Khaf

@Corinnebelle Just to check - are there any other prefixes I don't know of that are introduced in any of the skills?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:38 am

https://deepai.org/chat

Thinking of using this prompt to get accurate (enough) transliterations for all the words. This will take a while as I can only do 100-200 words at a time.

Most of the shevas are correct even on words that are using it as a silent letter, just sometimes I have seen some that don't look correct.

Don't know anything about AI.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I've replaced most of the transliterations with the AI-generated ones. If you don't prefer the new style, we can go back.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:22 am
Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:13 pm

@PtolemysXX I agree - largely. I think earlier in the course it's fine. For each letter - there is a skill where it is in introduced

e.g
Words 1/2/3 for Hey and Vav
There is for Lamed
Prepositions 1 for Bet/Vet
Conjunctions for Shin
Adverbs for Khaf

@Corinnebelle Just to check - are there any other prefixes I don't know of that are introduced in any of the skills?

מ from.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:20 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:22 am
Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:13 pm

@PtolemysXX I agree - largely. I think earlier in the course it's fine. For each letter - there is a skill where it is in introduced

e.g
Words 1/2/3 for Hey and Vav
There is for Lamed
Prepositions 1 for Bet/Vet
Conjunctions for Shin
Adverbs for Khaf

@Corinnebelle Just to check - are there any other prefixes I don't know of that are introduced in any of the skills?

מ from.

Thank you! Do you know which skill it is taught in? We can keep all the mem lexemes there?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Prepositions 1 second lesson.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 5:25 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:38 am

https://deepai.org/chat

Thinking of using this prompt to get accurate (enough) transliterations for all the words. This will take a while as I can only do 100-200 words at a time.

Most of the shevas are correct even on words that are using it as a silent letter, just sometimes I have seen some that don't look correct.

Don't know anything about AI.

It's ok - you don't need to know anything about AI to use this. It's just like you are entering a command into a textbox and getting a response. If you need any transliterations generated for you, you can just enter the request into the box and it will give you a response (you may need to adjust it).

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I am a bit torn on the AI-generated transliterations. On the one hand, it seems overall to have address the vocal shewa/shva problem. On the other hand, I do notice some mistakes and it might be harder to pick up on mistakes if we have to look out for more than the vocal shewa problem.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 5:55 pm

@Corinnebelle I've replaced most of the transliterations with the AI-generated ones. If you don't prefer the new style, we can go back.

In many ways it looks like Pealim. I think Pealim and the AI are focusing more on the sound than the literal transliteration.

It looks like I can just copy Pealim as long as I change the כ to kh. I'm not real keen on using AI personally.

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:21 pm

@Corinnebelle I am a bit torn on the AI-generated transliterations. On the one hand, it seems overall to have address the vocal shewa/shva problem. On the other hand, I do notice some mistakes and it might be harder to pick up on mistakes if we have to look out for more than the vocal shewa problem.

That's a worry! I thought I saw some too, but then I thought maybe that's something you haven't done yet.

What are you planning to base the TTS off? The transliteration or the nekkudot?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle In the final flashcards - the transliteration will be there to complement the audio file in the background. It's hard to describe without having something to show - but there will be the visual transliteration below the hebrew and the sound will play in the background. I have switched back to the rules based (Brill Simplified) version as it is easier to correct. Thanks for the feedback - I agree.

The TTS will be based on the nekkudot, as this is the format which google TTS accepts. I am sure it will generate some mistakes - but provided the nekkudot is accurate it is rules-based machine learning and will be much more specialised for this particular task.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:54 pm

@Corinnebelle In the final flashcards - the transliteration will be there to complement the audio file in the background. It's hard to describe without having something to show - but there will be the visual transliteration below the hebrew and the sound will play in the background. I have switched back to the rules based (Brill Simplified) version as it is easier to correct. Thanks for the feedback - I agree.

The TTS will be based on the nekkudot, as this is the format which google TTS accepts. I am sure it will generate some mistakes - but provided the nekkudot is accurate it is rules-based machine learning and will be much more specialised for this particular task.

I think that will work. The transliteration is good, but it does have its limitations. I do find it helpful when learning to see it written down, because the ear doesn't catch everything.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Hi - so an anonymous user is helping us with entering data. I wanted to clarify some points, as it is sort of complicated to explain:

  • For verbs, adjectives, adverbs - anything other than nouns - we take from the same row (some rows are just one word long). All words in Pealim are divided into rows. The picture below shows what this means. The reason we do this is that all the row forms are important to learn, have different exceptions, and often come up on the course
    Image
  • Some nouns have a plural form. If there is a not singular form, add the singular form for the word - as the singular form will almost certainly come up on the course. This completes the row as well.
  • There is one exception to the row rule - Some nouns have the singular form. It's not necessary to add the plural, as in this case, the plural is much less likely to come up on the course. Later we might go back and add plural nouns, but it's not a priority

"I got rid of words with the prefixes "ב", "מ", "ש" and combinations of them"

This is the right thing to do - this reduces the amount of words to process

"I kept the ones to do with time, because היום usually implies "today" rather than "the day"

Thanks for noticing this!

"There are many words that have an extra ה, but are the only form of that word (in that gender + plural form)"

In this case, you can remove the extra ה from the word and niqqud and change the transliteration and meaning. It is still important for people to learn these words, but people can infer what the ה prefix means.

Thanks for all the help! It is really appreciated!

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @PtolemysXX @dakanga @meanon

Another week - another 10 percent!

At this rate, it will take us two more months to a complete deck. I'm not expecting you to necessarily all be able to help volunteer over this time (I've had a busy week - apologies) - but every little helps. Thank you so much for helping!

Image

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle

This is an unlikely request, but I am in contact with the developers of the transliteration service. Would these rules work for transliterating the shewa/shva (two dots), or can you think of any exceptions?

Image

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 pm

@Corinnebelle

This is an unlikely request, but I am in contact with the developers of the transliteration service. Would these rules work for transliterating the shewa/shva (two dots), or can you think of any exceptions?

Image

I understand there can be a shewa and a vowel in a syllable. In 2.6.1 I agree with

  1. Agree
  2. Don't agree. i.e. קָטְלָה qamatz here is a long vowel and the next shewa is not pronounced.
  3. Makes sense
  4. Possible but not sure The example is Pealem is this which doesn't show a vocal shewa in the transliteration.
  5. Agree

2.6.2

  1. That appears to be the case here
  2. This one checks out [Wasn't expecting it.]
  3. Makes sense

I am no expert. I could get my university level book and have a study of it, but I think someone with a better working knowledge would be able to help more than me.

@EranBarLev @JudieLC Would you be able to help with this?

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by EranBarLev »

The 1st one is wrong. שמע is pronounced "shma" and the shva is silent. Maybe it used to be vocal when the niqqud was invented, but nowadays no one pronounces it that way.
I didn't bother to read the rest.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@EranBarLev Thanks for the feedback!

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Mon May 22, 2023 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JudieLC
United States of America

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by JudieLC »

EranBarLev wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 6:17 am

The 1st one is wrong. שמע is pronounced "shma" and the shva is silent. Maybe it used to be vocal when the niqqud was invented, but nowadays no one pronounces it that way.
I didn't bother to read the rest.

The way people say שמע in synagogue when they are praying, the shva does not sound silent to me, but I'm agreeing that it is in modern spoken Hebrew.

To be honest, I looked at the table of silent and non-silent shva last night, but I only really pay attention to that with regard to chanting the Torah in synagogue, and the rules there often do not match spoken Hebrew.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

JudieLC wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 12:31 pm
EranBarLev wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 6:17 am

The 1st one is wrong. שמע is pronounced "shma" and the shva is silent. Maybe it used to be vocal when the niqqud was invented, but nowadays no one pronounces it that way.
I didn't bother to read the rest.

The way people say שמע in synagogue when they are praying, the shva does not sound silent to me, but I'm agreeing that it is in modern spoken Hebrew.

To be honest, I looked at the table of silent and non-silent shva last night, but I only really pay attention to that with regard to chanting the Torah in synagogue, and the rules there often do not match spoken Hebrew.

That's what I was wondering, whether spoken Hebrew is the same as ancient Hebrew!

@EranBarLev Your answer agrees with Pealim. I should have checked that one too. Forvo sounds like a combination between shma and shema. Thanks both of you for your help.

Edit: Anyone who knows anything about Jewish thought knows the shema. שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... -Shema.htm

It's not modern Hebrew though.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

How about this בני shewa or no shewa? Forvo has both.

I'm trying to figure out whether בני in People first line currently 2154 is my son or son in construct form. I'm guessing construct, I will try and do some lessons and see if I encounter it. It's the only time it's listed. If anyone encounters it in a lesson please let me know the meaning. Thanks!

Edit: אני מוצאת את זה!

It is in construct form and so is בנות according to the comments. I wouldn't have guessed.

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/20926400

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