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[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

PtolemysXX wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:45 pm

If I I make some notes in the first free column ("N") is it going to break anything? Occasionally I need to make some remarks either because I am unsure about the entry or I want to come back to it later or perhaps ask for double checking.

Is there any trick to make the niqqud marks more visible? For the time being when I work on the spreadsheet I download the google table to excel and then open the file at 160% size or else I am unable to tell the ".." from "-" or the three dots...

No problem - I added a new column for Notes so you can do this.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

PtolemysXX wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 9:13 pm

I have some problems with pealim and morfix.

Both of them translate the word "risk" (skill) to סִכּוּן

Duolingo spelling is סִיכוּן.

My printed dictionary agrees with Duolingo ("yod" after "samekh"). I understand there is perhaps some duality in the spelling rules but if these sources and Duolingo don't agree which spelling should I pick? Where did you get your spelling from @Ed_Miliband ? It agrees with Duolingo too.

The unmarked word comes from Duolingo itself (@Corinnebelle's list) - so it's not surprising it matches. How I see it is that the flashcard will ask people to spell the word without vowels (column C), but as long as the pronunciation is the same - the niqqud spelling (column J) shouldn't matter. Because it will be fed into a TTS algorithm that will use typical Hebrew pronunciation rules + ML to figure out how it is said. In the case you bring up, both spellings lead to the same pronunciation so both should be acceptable. What do you think Corinnebelle?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

PtolemysXX wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 9:21 pm

one more item about multiple entries for the same word:

mutzar.PNG


The word "mutzar" seems very regular: the other two entries: "lammutzar" and "hammutzar" are constructed regularly. Is there a reason to keep three separate flashcards for this?

It is ok to take out lexemes provided it is not early on in the course. In this case, you should keep mutzar and remove the rows lammutzar and hammutzar (edit -> delete). It is backed up in case you make a mistake.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 9:10 pm

@PtolemysXX I use the zoom on the screen on the right of the tools at the top. In this picture it is set to 100%. Sometimes I increase it too.

Zoom.jpg

Image I've increased the font size of the words so you can see the vowels - hopefully this is better?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

When we have verbs in active and passive form do we indicate it?
i.e.
https://www.pealim.com/dict/603-lehachlit/

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:02 pm

I've increased the font size of the words so you can see the vowels - hopefully this is better?

The larger font is nice.

These days I understand they use more often the spelling with more of those yods and vavs because usually they don't use nekkudot. Nekkudot is great for learning how words are pronounced and also in reading sacred writing or where you have two words that look the same without it.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:29 am

When we have verbs in active and passive form do we indicate it?
i.e.
https://www.pealim.com/dict/603-lehachlit/

The complicated solution would be to make another column. But if it this is relatively uncommon the better answer seems to be to mark it down as {Form Tense} ‘Passive Present’. As long as the two are delineated by a space consistently, it should be very easy to separate the two descriptors in flashcards.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle to/for is introduced in the skill there is to/to have so I think we should keep the words there. I haven’t seen where shin (that/which/who) is introduced yet. When does kaf (as/like) and bet (at/with/in) come up as well?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

איטית Seems to be missing. I wonder if there are other words missing from this list too.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:31 pm

איטית Seems to be missing. I wonder if there are other words missing from this list too.

Yes, I found other forms missing also. The question is do we add them or not. איטית is one where I think I'd get it wrong if I didn't learn it. Some words might be quite regular so it may not be necessary. Yet I'm always looking at Pealim to see if I got the spelling right for the tense so memorizing them is good idea. It's up to you.

Words missing
הוֹפְכוֹת
feminine plural

turns/over/into-(ל-)

מַתְאִימָה
feminine singular
מַתְאִימִים
masculine plural

matches, is compatible, be the right size, fits

feminine singular
מְכִילָה
masculine plural
מְכִילִים
includes, contains, comprises

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 5:39 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:31 pm

איטית Seems to be missing. I wonder if there are other words missing from this list too.

Yes, I found other forms missing also. The question is do we add them or not. איטית is one where I think I'd get it wrong if I didn't learn it. Some words might be quite regular so it may not be necessary. Yet I'm always looking at Pealim to see if I got the spelling right for the tense so memorizing them is good idea. It's up to you.

Words missing
הוֹפְכוֹת
feminine plural

turns/over/into-(ל-)

מַתְאִימָה
feminine singular
מַתְאִימִים
masculine plural

matches, is compatible, be the right size, fits

feminine singular
מְכִילָה
masculine plural
מְכִילִים
includes, contains, comprises

I think it makes sense if there is a masculine to have the feminine and if there is a feminine to have the masculine. I am a bit worried about adding too much to do though.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 5:59 pm

I think it makes sense if there is a masculine to have the feminine and if there is a feminine to have the masculine. I am a bit worried about adding too much to do though.

Well let's see how it goes. I will insert these I found. What I do if the nekkudot is wrong, I run it through the Hebrew transliteration program unless I'm just getting rid of ה that way the transliteration is consistent with the rest of the deck.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 1:00 pm

@Corinnebelle to/for is introduced in the skill there is to/to have so I think we should keep the words there. I haven’t seen where shin (that/which/who) is introduced yet. When does kaf (as/like) and bet (at/with/in) come up as well?

Prepositions 1 for ב

Conjunctions for ש

Adverbs has some כ, maybe comparison also.

viewtopic.php?p=17469#p17469

viewtopic.php?p=19560#p19560

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 6:43 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 1:00 pm

@Corinnebelle to/for is introduced in the skill there is to/to have so I think we should keep the words there. I haven’t seen where shin (that/which/who) is introduced yet. When does kaf (as/like) and bet (at/with/in) come up as well?

Prepositions 1 for ב

Conjunctions for ש

Adverbs has some כ, maybe comparison also.

viewtopic.php?p=17469#p17469

viewtopic.php?p=19560#p19560

Thank you! We should keep the prefixes in these skills too.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

Why do you need the extra dash? And no, there is no word limit the flash card word length.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

The negative imperative actually uses the future tense.

https://duome.eu/tips/en/he#Negative-Imperatives

Should that be labeled Neg. Imperative? I am going through verbs, sometimes I search through the them using a definition. It's easiest to do all the cases listed when I have I them on one page on Pealim. I'm trying to stay in my own section, but I do flit around a bit.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:22 pm
Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

Why do you need the extra dash? And no, there is no word limit the flash card word length.

The ל wants to jump to the beginning of the definition when I want it at the end.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

The form column might need a little attention to. Feel free to check anything I've checked. I'm checking for transliteration etc., but the I'm thinking some of the words in the form column will need to be adjusted depending on the skill.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:05 pm

The negative imperative actually uses the future tense.

https://duome.eu/tips/en/he#Negative-Imperatives

Should that be labeled Neg. Imperative? I am going through verbs, sometimes I search through the them using a definition. It's easiest to do all the cases listed when I have I them on one page on Pealim. I'm trying to stay in my own section, but I do flit around a bit.

Negative Imperative seems to be consistent with the other form types - that makes sense to use.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:06 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:22 pm
Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

Why do you need the extra dash? And no, there is no word limit the flash card word length.

The ל wants to jump to the beginning of the definition when I want it at the end.

Ah - sometimes typing Hebrew and English produces these errors. Confusingly, the box at the top of the page where you enter the cell value should be what any computer program picks up on though - not how it displays in the cell itself.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

If you are adding new values this will help - https://jcuenod.github.io/hebrewTools/ this removes any vowels / pointing in the word column.

e.g. I saw there was no term for male monkey whilst there was on pealim - so I googled "קוף duolingo" - there was a forum post from the course. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/17543741/קוף-זה-חיה. So I added the row.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @PtolemysXX I created a "Named Function" in Google Sheets. If you run =STRIP(I2) or the corresponding cell, it removes the vowels for you. Hope this helps!

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

I have a question - when is a preposition a conjunction. I usually assume conjunctions are when you join a letter and a word or a word to a word. A phrase is when words are separated by a space. But by this definition - most prepositions are conjunctions?

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

How about not mixing the Hebrew and Latin fonts? One can write in the Hebrew section:

הוֹפְכוֹת ל ~

and in the translation:

turns/over/into ~

Funnily I had to type the tilde "~" at the end of the Hebrew text so it would be displayed at the begining :shock:

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

PtolemysXX wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:38 pm
Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

How about not mixing the Hebrew and Latin fonts? One can write in the Hebrew section:

הוֹפְכוֹת ל ~

and in the translation:

turns/over/into ~

Funnily I had to type the tilde "~" at the end of the Hebrew text so it would be displayed at the begining :shock:

This makes sense too, but it should be entirely possible to mix latin and hebrew. It's just a bit more difficult with the reverse order.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Just felt I should post as it was aesthetically pleasing.

Image

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 6:56 pm

Just felt I should post as it was aesthetically pleasing.

Cool.

Regarding the rows with FALSE in the Match? column: if I understand correctly this shows the difference between the modern-days Hebrew spelling standard (with yod's and vav's) and the traditional niqqud-based spelling. How is the text-to-speech generation going to work with either of these spellings? Can one rely on correct vowel reproduction?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@PtolemysXX You are right about the column. I use Google Neural2/Custom Voices in Hebrew. You can try out a less sophisticated version of it here: https://cloud.google.com/text-to-speech. From what I have tested, it is really impressive. Bing is rule based i.e if this vowel is here it should be read as such. Google uses machine learning, trained on hundreds of hours of data. That means it infers from the data what it should be for words it has never even encountered. This makes it much more accurate and reliable for "exception" cases.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

For those who want to be overly completionist - 'PDF Comparison' is the list of words as set out by Multiwerp that are on the course. There are about 170 missing words from our list - excluding conjugations etc. That is pretty good, in my opinion, given that they are sourced from two different accounts at two different times on the duolingo course. Once we are done with everything (big if), I'll go through this list myself and check what needs adding. But I don't want this to distract from the main task at hand which is checking all the errors on the main sheet.

Sorry for the slow personal progress on this - various personal difficulties. I am immensely thankful for everything you are putting into this. I do believe that non-latin languages courses on duolingo lack for reasons like this - and our efforts will make the site much more useful in learning Hebrew. Thank you again.

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