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[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:57 pm

@Corinnebelle @meanon @dakanga We are about a quarter of the way through. Are there any tools I could write to help speed up the process or to help?

Maybe highlight all the "the's" and "and's"?

1/4 of the way, that's pretty awesome since we started just a month ago!

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Another thing is if we could click anywhere on the checked box and the drop-down menu would open. I find myself having to scroll over every time. It's probably not something you can fix.

What do you mean with the colors? Add more colors than Duolingo has? All the colors except gold and bronze are in that area, as far as I remember and they are in the construct of medals.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I've added both of the changes you asked. 'And' and 'the' is now highlighted (I can add more prefixes if you want). You should be able to just click on the dropdown now to get it to open.

As for the colours - I was worried some were missing, but the set seems complete.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

So - this is not meant to be a major complaint. Ideally the words for Farmers (or any other gendered combinations) would be deliminated using (m) or (f) or (m,s) etc. You can see how we've done this elsewhere. Whilst most sources assume "Farmer" is Masculine by default, people who use flashcards may not assume that.

Something along the lines of

farmer (m)
farmer (f)
farmers (m)
farmers (f)

or farmers (m,s) - just some form of indication as to what the gender is and plurality (if it is not clear by the word itself).

Image

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I'll try to do that, but I don't know if I'm that aware of it. Won't the flashcard show the gender anyway or will that be on the other side?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle How would you feel if we switched to the words list from the wiki course? Of course - it would have much less meta information (only having the word and definition), and some of the skills are missing words. It would also be missing the conjugations. I don't know - sorry, this is still a bit overwhelming.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:30 pm

@Ed_Miliband I'll try to do that, but I don't know if I'm that aware of it. Won't the flashcard show the gender anyway or will that be on the other side?

Yep, the flashcard will show all the tags associated with it.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

EranBarLev wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 4:01 am
Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

I've been able to confirm that ברחבי is a preposition.

Right.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

The nekkudot is correct.

The correct name for it is "nikud". "Nekkudot" just means "dots" or "points".

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

After listening to it on Forvo I took out the sheva e in the transliteration.

Wrong. It's pronounced "berakhavei", and it sounds very clear on Forvo too.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

I'm still puzzling over the רחבי Pealim lists that in two forms, one an adjective construct, the other a noun.

Me too. There is no such thing as an adjective construct. A construct state is composed of nouns, not adjectives. To my best knowledge this word is only used as part of a preposition. It can be also לרחבי or מרחבי, but I can't think of any example where it's used as an adjective or anything other than a preposition.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

35 Places בכל רחבי all over, all around, all across, everywhere in, in all parts, throughout Plural Phrase בְּכָל רְחָבִי bkhol rḥavi

No. The nikud is still רַחֲבֵי, and It's pronounced "bekhol rakhavei".

The correct name for it is "nikud".

Even in plural?

In the Hebrew tips it says:

In Hebrew the vowels aren't represented by letters, but by dots and dashes that appear around the letters. These dots and dashes are called nekudot (נקודות), and the system that they make up is known as nikud (ניקוד). (Note: a common mistake for beginners is to refer to them as nikudot. This word doesn't exist.)

But the person who wrote the Hebrew course maybe was not Israeli to know the correct usage of the word.

Wrong. It's pronounced "berakhavei", and it sounds very clear on Forvo too.

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Books and computer programs are no replacement for a real human. Really appreciate it!

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Thanks for fixing up the בכל רחבי!

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:39 pm

@Corinnebelle How would you feel if we switched to the words list from the wiki course? Of course - it would have much less meta information (only having the word and definition), and some of the skills are missing words. It would also be missing the conjugations. I don't know - sorry, this is still a bit overwhelming.

That would be a lot easier, but then we'd have to start over, if we wanted to add those or do we just skip the missing bits?

I take this in pieces, do a bit here and a bit there. That way I don't get swamped with verbs. There is no rush to get this done.

I was thinking to maybe send PM's or do mentions to people who list an Israeli flag to see if we could get more participation or a native speaker to check our work.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband The ultimate decision is yours, although I'm not the only volunteer working on this course. @meanon @PtolemysXX

Please save what we've done so far, even if we do the wiki course. Even having flashcards for part of the course in such detail will be great!

I understand the overwhelment. Hebrew is not easy.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle The way we would switch is something like this

The Hebrew would be whatever comes before the equals sign
The Definition would be whatever comes after the sign

The skill information (i.e. everything between the contents and the words) would be included on Memrise (they let you split word memorisation with course details).

We would extract the niqqud from whatever words we have entered so far that overlap with the course—the ones which don't, we would need to check.

Audio would be automatically generated.

The transliteration would be automatically generated (WIP - we still need to fix the shva problem).

We wouldn't have word types, form or type. Gender is included in some of the words of the course but not all of them. The default is assumed to be masculine.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@meanon @PtolemysXX I want your opinions too - should we go for the full word set, or focus on a smaller word set from the wiki? Thank you for your help.

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by EranBarLev »

Corinnebelle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 pm

The correct name for it is "nikud".

Even in plural?

Nikud is uncountable, it has no plural.

Corinnebelle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:48 pm

In the Hebrew tips it says:

In Hebrew the vowels aren't represented by letters, but by dots and dashes that appear around the letters. These dots and dashes are called nekudot (נקודות), and the system that they make up is known as nikud (ניקוד). (Note: a common mistake for beginners is to refer to them as nikudot. This word doesn't exist.)

The word "nekudot" means "dots" or "points". The nikud is made of both dots and dashes, so it's wrong to call it just "dots".

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Another idea would be to have column or some way of marking those words in the wiki course, maybe a color on the word column and those words are the ones we can focus on first. We can still do the rest as we have time, but that would speed the overall production of a deck.

The skill information (i.e. everything between the contents and the words) would be included on Memrise (they let you split word memorisation with course details).

I haven't used Memorize for a long time. I use Anki. Will you still make an Anki deck as well?

I find learning the infinitives of words for the verbs pretty useless as a student. I suppose once you get the hang of it. For the present that is what they teach. It looks like they list other forms elsewhere.

Apparently some Israelis only masculine form in speaking, so if that's all you learn you can get by.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@EranBarLev Aha! Thanks!

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:04 pm

@meanon @PtolemysXX I want your opinions too - should we go for the full word set, or focus on a smaller word set from the wiki? Thank you for your help.

Personally I like the Github list the most. It has 2833 lexemes, that is exactly the number that shows up on duome stats and on the ardslot server so it is likely that it matches the course design the best.

On the flip side lexemes in the Github list occasionaly contain articles and other prefixes that seem to have been pruned from the Wiki list. However I am afraid that the Wiki list misses something. In a brief random check I could not find the "Future Nif'al" skill No 79. on Wiki. The list is shorter by some 260 lexems

The question is whether you could port the work done so far to any of the two lists. If yes I'll vote for using the Github list. If no, I'll stick with the current list because a lot of work has been done on it already so sooner or later even that list will be completed.

Last edited by PtolemysXX on Mon May 29, 2023 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I know my contributions to checking things is rather poor compared to yours.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle We can do Anki! I just assumed people preferred Memrise. That's ok.

Re: which list - We can stick with the complete list. You both raise a good points; it is often helpful to learn the conjugations for words, and the other list will be missing terms. I just was a bit stressed that people might get bored another month into the project. If that happens, though, I'll make an Anki set based on the current words we've done. I am unsure how to find more volunteers, but anyone is welcome to help, and you are welcome to share the google sheets list with more people.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Learning Hebrew is a long process at least for someone without a Hebrew background, so I don't expect boredom too quickly! Anyone determined to learn can benefit from working on this project. I have.

I imagine some people prefer Memrise. Is it hard to do both?

@Friedrich Rubinstein Would you be interested in helping with this project?
@Tikvah_18 @Meli578588 @Kelikaku @Klempner von Beruf @nizzanc @DavidHefer @nati @deservalabari

We are trying to make a comprehensive deck for Duolingo's Hebrew course. This has never been done before. All decks and word lists so far have had some words missing. We need help to check the transliteration, meaning, gender, niqqud etc. of each word and enter in some conjugations of words. If you are a native speaker we would appreciate your input in order to get the list as accurate as possible. If you are a learner we welcome your efforts also. Whatever you can do is welcome, as much or as little as you wish.

If your name hasn't been mentioned here, we'd still appreciate your help if you're interested.

Please reply if you're interested and we will give you the link to the document we're working on. Here's a sample picture of what it looks like.

Spreadsheet.jpg
Spreadsheet.jpg (106.63 KiB) Viewed 7981 times

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:58 pm

So - this is not meant to be a major complaint. Ideally the words for Farmers (or any other gendered combinations) would be deliminated using (m) or (f) or (m,s) etc. You can see how we've done this elsewhere. Whilst most sources assume "Farmer" is Masculine by default, people who use flashcards may not assume that.

Something along the lines of

farmer (m)
farmer (f)
farmers (m)
farmers (f)

or farmers (m,s) - just some form of indication as to what the gender is and plurality (if it is not clear by the word itself).

Image

My bad, I was the one that did this 😝 Thanks for letting me know!! I will go back and redo that skill, and make sure to add it in future ones! My thinking was probably that you use the male form when you generalize and also for mixed groups, so you wouldnt use the female form unless you were sure about that fact. And then I thought that we were already labelling each word with the gender and context, so I thought it would be redundant, but I can see why this would need extra clarification, especially for this skill. Thanks for catching it!

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:04 pm

@meanon @PtolemysXX I want your opinions too - should we go for the full word set, or focus on a smaller word set from the wiki? Thank you for your help.

I'm fine with whatever way you choose! Just let me know what I can do to be of the most help :) I realize I jumped in late, so its taking a bit of time adjusting and getting up to speed on the details of what's going on and what you've done etc.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@meanon It's no big issue - any and all help is really appreciated! Thanks for volunteering your time to this project.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle Going through the list and making changes to the 'form' column

Absolute / Construct are for nouns (e.g. חָלָב) / phrases which refer to a noun (e.g. הַחָלָב) / pronouns (e.g. אוֹתְךָ).
Present / Past / Future / Imperative / Passive are for verbs.
Infinitive is the root form of a word
If none apply, we can leave it blank.

This is difficult as a. I am not a native speaker and b. the dictionaries seem to disagree on precise definitions / terms.

Hopefully these are ok?

UPDATE: I checked the first thousand words for the form column. Seems to be ok now?

Image

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband On thing I have wondered is about the name context, I would put that number, but I think you mentioned something about that before?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle No, you are right, 'number' works much better. I've changed it.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Um, so in the form column that's listing present, absolute etc. I see Active for some present verbs and present for others. Is that something I added, but shouldn't have? When verbs have an active and a passive form should we do Present (A)? If I notice? I like the new layout, got to do a few corrections.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

I am not sure - I have not come across this yet in my Duolingo course. What do you think? If I am getting this right - most of the earlier verbs are active. I think what you are suggesting makes sense but will probably mean I need to run through all the verbs we've done so far to see which of the three (active, passive, reflexive) they fall in.

UPDATE: I've done the first 1000 (well 984) words under the new system. All the verbs were active, but if they are not you can use {tense} (A/P/R). Thanks for the suggestion! Hopefully this does not complicate things too much.

Friedrich Rubinstein

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Friedrich Rubinstein »

@Corinnebelle Hi, thank you for the invitation :) Unfortunately my schedule won't let me be of great help in this tremendous project, and I don't want to mess something up by editing something without understanding the system. It'd probably also help if I actually completed the Duolingo course, which I haven't.

Just to not be completely useless I noticed though that in the screenshot you sent there might be a ה missing, based on the transliteration:

hankasim.png
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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Friedrich Rubinstein The system is pretty simple. You use Pealim or Wikitionary to check things. There is no need of a prior knowledge of Hebrew. @meanon and I have finished the Hebrew course, although I don't know all the words, @PtolemysXX wants to learn and @Ed_Miliband has started the course.

For verbs and adjectives you add anything on the same line of Pealim, for nouns you don't need to add plurals. If you need to add something you use this for the transliteration. If the nikkud is incorrect you copy it from the dictionary and paste it in. The you us the transliteration program so it matches. You check Pealim or Wikitionary to make sure the transliteration is correct.

I can pm you the link, you don't need to even look at it, but if you even found some little mistakes that would be helpful. Thanks for catching that mistake! :)

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