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[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@JudieLC @Corinnebelle @EranBarLev @dakanga For the record - you were all right. Those were the rules for ancient Hebrew, not modern Ivrit. According to A Reference Grammar of Modern Hebrew - https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_ ... 5USZGqzXcC - these are the modern rules.

Image

I will get back to you (it will probably be a while) if this is feasible to implement.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

That last line of the definition sounds like a suit yourself sheva depending on how well you can pronounce it.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

I found a word not listed in wikifandom. It will be interesting when you @Ed_Miliband put all the words together for the deck from all the different sources.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle Which sources do we want to get them from? Here is a list of the following. I'll DM their contents. Some are more recent than others. There is some overlap but I don't think we will need all of these.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle Here are the words from the Wiki.

https://github.com/JacobWeinbren/Memris ... _words.csv (2600 words)

Here is my thinking

  • The Wiki is well maintained.
  • The Github is well maintained
  • The PDF includes conjugations - interesting, but not useful for a like / like comparison
    - The Definition List has a good list too It is missing some categories

I will make these into extra sheets on the 'complete' sheet. It will highlight what is missing. And we can decide whether to include them.

EDIT: I've added the sheets in for comparison. I think we should stick with the list of words we have for now; there seems to be seems to be a lot of difference between lists that is hard to account for.

EDIT 2: Will try cross referencing e.g. is the word in BOTH the Wiki and Github and Not in the main sheet. This should reduce identifiable errors enough.

EDIT 3: The number of words that are on the Wiki List and Github List but not on our sheet numbers 508. Most of these are root verbs (e.g. to walk). Or words we do have but are in lexemes (e.g. the bus, the witchcraft) that we need to remove the prefix. A smaller number are legitimately words that need adding e.g. עגבניה (Tomato)

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Hopefully, that is what you were looking for @Corinnebelle. Once we have finished the main list, we can go back and check through this comparison. My guess is the "legitimate" number of differences is around 200-300 looking at this list.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:16 pm

Hopefully, that is what you were looking for @Corinnebelle. Once we have finished the main list, we can go back and check through this comparison. My guess is the "legitimate" number of differences is around 200-300 looking at this list.

You mentioned it before, that's not an enormous amount but each one matters. We definitely need tomato! :D

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

For the time being we have cherry tomatoes in the last skill...

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

For the record, I have turned off the formulae in the other sheets besides the main one for now. This is because they seemed to be slowing things down slightly. I have kept them in a separate sheet for record (and if you want to check something for yourself).

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

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dakanga

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by dakanga »

Would / could this help ?

רחבי definition

https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/en-he/רחבי/

https://context.reverso.net/translation ... glish/רחבי
https://dictionary.reverso.net/hebrew-e ... חבי/forced

ברחבי definition

https://www.almaany.com/he/dict/en-he/ברחבי/
https://dictionary.reverso.net/hebrew-english/ברחבי
https://context.reverso.net/translation ... lish/ברחבי


eddited / added
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/1925 ... -the-world

InnocentAbroad :
Is this literally "in all the streets of the world"?

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JBJosh - JBJosh
No, though I see why it might seem like that. The word "רחבי" in this case is related to the word "רחב" (wide) and literally means "the open areas of", such that "... בכל רחבי" means "all over ...". (To say "in all the streets of the world" you would say "בכל רחובות העולם".)

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@dakanga Thanks for the information. The almaany is a good resource. At least I know one is an adjective now. I do need the nekkudot for them. I wonder where I can find that. I suppose if I read Hebrew, I could get a Hebrew dictionary.

@Ed_Miliband Do we add בכל רחבי? It's listed in Duo's Wiki fandom. Somehow רחבי was רחבים on the nekkudot side. I checked the original and רחבי is correct. Do we have the correct nekkudot for that? I took the ם off, but you can see the transliteration is still off.

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Just wondering, is רחבי a construct form somewhat like the בתי in בתי הספר? and רחבים the plural word for width?

Also question, I'm confused about how to go about checking the niqqud and transliteration columns. Are there specific sources to check for the nikkud and transliteration to keep everything consistent?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@dakanga Thanks for these sources and for helping Corinnebelle! Short of any reputable / well-maintained source having these - you can probably google it for any news sites to see when it comes up.

@meanon For now we are using this source https://hebrewtransliteration.app/#schema-modal (Brill Simplified). The one issue with this is the shva / shewa (the two vertical dots) - whether to pronounce it (e), or not. If it is not pronounced according to pealim or another source, you can remove the 'e'. My plan is - some point next month hopefully, to automate transliterations using AI or a rule-based system. As for now it is manual. As for the niqqud - see the above sources, pealim and wikitionary are generally good.

Sometimes the niqqud is shorter than the word without vowels. See here for more info - https://www.pealim.com/articles/writing ... ut-vowels/

@Corinnebelle If a phrase seems useful, it makes sense to add it. I got for it בְּכָל רְחָבִי (bkhol rḥavi) and רְחָבִי (rḥavi). Not sure why it added a final mem.

Thank you all for helping and sorry for the slow response - I got these messages about 1-6am in the UK.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Don't worry! Thanks for your patience with me as I puzzle things out. I like to get everything exact.

I've been able to confirm that ברחבי is a preposition. The nekkudot is correct. After listening to it on Forvo I took out the sheva e in the transliteration.

https://forvo.com/search/ברחבי/

I'm still puzzling over the רחבי Pealim lists that in two forms, one an adjective construct, the other a noun.. https://www.pealim.com/search/?q=רחבי
I'm not entirely sure how Duolingo uses the word, the ones that came up in the search are only using it in the phrase בכל רחבי so maybe it isn't even taught on it's own, (Maybe there are more sentences I didn't see?). Still something that helps you learn the meaning of the phrase to have a entry for רחבי. I did a few lessons on Places but the snake is pretty hopeless at going through all the lessons in a skill, so I didn't find it.

I've gone with the information Pealim lists for adjective, masculine, construct. If someone has more information let me know.

I've done my best with these.

35 Places ברחבי around, across, through, throughout, all over, wide open space Preposition בְּרַחֲבֵי braḥavei

35 Places בכל רחבי all over, all around, all across, everywhere in, in all parts, throughout Plural Phrase בְּכָל רְחָבִי bkhol rḥavi

35 Places רחבי wide, vast, across Masculine Construct Plural Adjective רַחֲבֵי raḥavei

@EranBarLev If you have some time, would you let me know if I've got these right?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@dakanga Thanks for your help! @meanon I think you might be right. Pealim thinks so too.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

The name for island is quite cute.

אי אי I see an island.

אני רואה אי.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@meanon Good to see you here! I use Pealim mainly to check the nekkudot and the transliteration. I'll add extra meanings from Pealim if I see them. (Not required.) If the nekkudot is different I copy it and paste it in the sheet, than I paste it in here and put the transliteration in the sheet as well. If the transliteration is different, nekkudot is the same I'll excise those shevas @Ed_Miliband mentioned. When I can't find it in Pealim, I'll use Wikitionary, when I can't find it in Wikitionary, I might try reverso, or call for help, Wikifandom has a list of most words in the course so very helpful. Searching for the word in Duolingo sentence discussions is a good idea if you don't know what meaning Duolingo is using. I just used one of my paper dictionaries for confirm the transliteration of ברים. Internet archive has some dictionaries if you don't have paper, I haven't dived into that yet. That's my system...

Another tip is to use Ctrl+F for searching the sheet, that way you can hit singular and plural at once or different forms of a verb.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

This seems to be a good one published in 2000.

https://archive.org/details/ntcshebrewe ... 5/mode/2up

1995
https://archive.org/details/compactuptodatee0000zilb

1994
https://archive.org/details/meridianhebrewen0000bena

2002
https://archive.org/details/modernenglishheb0000zilk

Archive library accounts are free. You can borrow for 1 hour at a time on most books, some are longer.

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

@Corinnebelle @Ed_Miliband תודה רבה! I'll try to knock out as much as possible 😄

Question: When there is a word with an extra yod or vav, it should be kept, right? Eg. when שָׁוֶה is spelled שווה, or שְׁתַּיִם being spelled שתיים, or חֲמִשָּׁה being spelled חמישה (This is done to prevent confusion when reading normally without niqqud)

Sorry for all the questions!

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

It's interesting how the Hebrew Transliteration site adds an extra sh in shishsha for pronouncing שישה. I noticed the same thing with חמישה.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@meanon Thanks so much for helping! Any questions you have, fire away.

חֲמִשָּה has a dagesh in the ש which means it is doubled so the transliteration program adds a second shin. I think you'd pronounce it Ha-mesh-shah, so you use the shin twice. Pealim doesn't show that doubling like some English words where we pronounce letters twice in a word but it's only written once.

I usually keep those words with the extra yod or vav in the nekkudot section, though sometimes not, it will have a dagesh if it doesn't, main thing is it's pronounceable. Sometimes when copying nekkudot from Pealim for a word they disappear. They must be kept in the section without nekkudot.

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by EranBarLev »

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

I've been able to confirm that ברחבי is a preposition.

Right.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

The nekkudot is correct.

The correct name for it is "nikud". "Nekkudot" just means "dots" or "points".

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

After listening to it on Forvo I took out the sheva e in the transliteration.

Wrong. It's pronounced "berakhavei", and it sounds very clear on Forvo too.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

I'm still puzzling over the רחבי Pealim lists that in two forms, one an adjective construct, the other a noun.

Me too. There is no such thing as an adjective construct. A construct state is composed of nouns, not adjectives. To my best knowledge this word is only used as part of a preposition. It can be also לרחבי or מרחבי, but I can't think of any example where it's used as an adjective or anything other than a preposition.

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

35 Places בכל רחבי all over, all around, all across, everywhere in, in all parts, throughout Plural Phrase בְּכָל רְחָבִי bkhol rḥavi

No. The nikud is still רַחֲבֵי, and It's pronounced "bekhol rakhavei".

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:11 am

@meanon Thanks so much for helping! Any questions you have, fire away.

חֲמִשָּה has a dagesh in the ש which means it is doubled so the transliteration program adds a second shin. I think you'd pronounce it Ha-mesh-shah, so you use the shin twice. Pealim doesn't show that doubling like some English words where we pronounce letters twice in a word but it's only written once.

Thank you! I didn't know that about the dagesh. So do we go with the Pealim transliteration, or the transliteration program? I've the impression that colloquially its usually pronouced as cha-mi-sha, but that may be due to the speed at which its spoken.
For consistency, we are going with the transliteration version, correct?

I usually keep those words with the extra yod or vav in the nekkudot section, though sometimes not, it will have a dagesh if it doesn't, main thing is it's pronounceable. Sometimes when copying nekkudot from Pealim for a word they disappear. They must be kept in the section without nekkudot.

So to clarify, I kept the version with the extra letters in the 'Word' column (eg. שתיים), and put original version in the 'Niqqud' column (eg. שְׁתַּיִם). Does that work?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm

35 Places בכל רחבי all over, all around, all across, everywhere in, in all parts, throughout Plural Phrase בְּכָל רְחָבִי bkhol rḥavi

No. The nikud is still רַחֲבֵי, and It's pronounced "bekhol rakhavei".

Sorry @Corinnebelle - it was my mistake - the wrong niqqud is cited in a few obscure dictionaries - when I should have just checked Pealim! @EranBarLev Thank you for correcting. Apologies again.

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Fri May 26, 2023 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Thank you! I didn't know that about the dagesh. So do we go with the Pealim transliteration, or the transliteration program? I've the impression that colloquially its usually pronouced as cha-mi-sha, but that may be due to the speed at which its spoken.
For consistency, we are going with the transliteration version, correct?

For now - yes. we use the program. In the final version, there will be audio accompanying the transliteration so it is clearer how to pronounce it.

So to clarify, I kept the version with the extra letters in the 'Word' column (eg. שתיים), and put original version in the 'Niqqud' column (eg. שְׁתַּיִם). Does that work?

Yep - under 'Words' is the version shown by Duolingo (or our flashcards) - the niqqud is the version that helps with pronunciation.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

I've coloured in the colours - if there is any missing colours which should be included let me know and I will add them!

Image

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @meanon @dakanga We are about a quarter of the way through. Are there any tools I could write to help speed up the process or to help?

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meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

I just need to put in more work 😆 We're at 30% and past 1.5k words!

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