Dear anyone,
Your duolingo forum registration isn't automaticaly transferred to duome forum so in order to join duome forums you need to register with your existing or any other username and email; in any case it's advised that you choose a new password for the forum.
~ Duome Team

[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 4:20 pm
Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 pm

Are slashes no good to use in a definition like this one:

הוֹפְכוֹת
turns/over/into-(ל-)

I've been adding meanings from Pealim if they have them. Why not learn as much as possible, but then I think if people type the answers that might be tricky. The ל at the end indicates that the preposition should be used with the word. Only way I could get it to go to the end of the phrase was with the extra dash.

Is there a limit on the phrase size for definitions. Occasionally Pealim has a long one. I'm not actively looking for phrases, just picking them up as I check words.

I have a question - when is a preposition a conjunction. I usually assume conjunctions are when you join a letter and a word or a word to a word. A phrase is when words are separated by a space. But by this definition - most prepositions are conjunctions?

In Hebrew when you touch someone, you touch in someone. So then you'll use the preposition ב with the next word. Yes, in Hebrew most prepositions are "conjunctions". However technically since Hebrew uses single letters for a lot of words you need to learn what those words are to know what part of speech they are.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I am a bit lost - can you explain what would describe the following:

"the milk"
"to the milk"
"to you"
"and Jerusalem"

Are these noun phrases? word constructions? conjunctions? prepositions?
How do we handle words that are more than one word?

"the" is an definite article but "milk" is a noun. So noun phrase? So a noun?
"to the milk" we established as a prepositional phrase? So a preposition?
"to you" is a prepositional phrase? So a preposition?
"and Jerusalem" is a conjunctive phrase? so a conjunction? or a phrase?
And what about word constructions?

Should we remove word types entirely for multiple words? Or should they go under phrases?

The alternative is to establish a whole new set of word types. What benefit would this bring to the end user (I ask this sincerely as I am not sure)?

Edit: I think that everyone has logged off, for now I will put groups of words under phrases. I think I if we described “to you” as a preposition then people might think “you” is a preposition when it is a pronoun? The alternative is to introduce all the types of phrases that could be - which would imo over complicate the categories. But I am open to a counter argument?

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

I wonder if listing a noun with the article has any added value. All entries of the type "the NNB" , "to the NNN", "from the NNN*, etc. bloat the entire list by a factor of 3 or something, while they are still teaching the same exact noun. In most cases there is also little point in having a separate entry for the plural form if it is regular (masculine "im" and feminine "(i)ot"). Without all that surplus information it should be sufficient to use the classifier "noun" + Attribute "gender" and "plural" (the latter only if not regular). As a comparison, when one learns English, there is no need to learn "child", "a child", "the child" as independent expressions as it only puts too much strain on one's memory. In that case memorizing the significant pair "child, children" determines the word completely.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@PtolemysXX I agree - largely. I think earlier in the course it's fine. For each letter - there is a skill where it is in introduced

e.g
Words 1/2/3 for Hey and Vav
There is for Lamed
Prepositions 1 for Bet/Vet
Conjunctions for Shin
Adverbs for Khaf

I think this leaves us with 3 options:

  • Keep all the prefix words
  • Preserve the instances in the first skill it comes up in
  • Remove all the prefix words (lexemes)

So far we have stuck with the second option - I'm open to other ideas though. What do you think?

EDIT: Adding @Corinnebelle

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Fri May 19, 2023 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I would go with a phrase unless it is a word like עליה than I would say a prepositional phrase.

https://www.pealim.com/dict/6012-al/

There's many words like that and you need to learn all of them, most have the same pattern but there are a few little differences here and there to learn.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I think this is the first time we have disagreed - if we introduce prepositional phrase, then we would have to introduce noun phrase, verb phrase, adverb phrase, adjective phrase too. In my view, this would overcomplicate things. We have a lot of words to get through. In your view, does the benefit (improved specificity) outweigh the cost (time, risk of mistakes)?

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I guess you'd just call those prepositions then? As long as one lists masculine and plural etc you shouldn't need "prepositional phrase". You are the creator of the deck so you can make it however you like! :)

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle In my view, I think all phrases - this is to say combination of words - should go under phrase. It is more imprecise. But given that most phrases are going to be cut out, except for where necessary (infinitives, introductory skills), added specificity isn't necessarily needed to identify the word on the flashcard, given the other information we are providing for each word.

At the same time, I don't want to undermine trust in this project. But I think I have to draw a line somewhere because of the big constraints of time and size. I hope this is ok?

As I understand it - it is better for this to be finished, and let people to go back later and add details, than to be incomplete but precise. Hopefully you are still on board?

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband Of course! It's quite fiddly with phrases. Like a single Hebrew word is a phrase in English and vice-versa so you don't know what you're identifying anyway. I will label anything that has two words as a phrase.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I'm finding the deck quite slow and searching for duplicates tedious. Any way to speed it up?

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I removed a large section of formulas from the deck - hopefully, this has sped things up? The main thing slowing me down in terms of adding words is the conjugations for all the verbs. We need more people I think I am not sure how to do this.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:51 pm

@Corinnebelle I removed a large section of formulas from the deck - hopefully, this has sped things up? The main thing slowing me down in terms of adding words is the conjugations for all the verbs. We need more people I think I am not sure how to do this.

It appears to be faster. Still got some glitches. Right now it can't find broom even though I just saw broom.

I'm only adding like if it list only the feminine, the masculine also of that tense of a verb. I'm not adding any conjugations of the verbs other than in the tense taught. That seems like too much of a project to me. What are you doing?

Edit: It finally found broom, but that took forever.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:21 pm
Ed_Miliband wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 8:51 pm

@Corinnebelle I removed a large section of formulas from the deck - hopefully, this has sped things up? The main thing slowing me down in terms of adding words is the conjugations for all the verbs. We need more people I think I am not sure how to do this.

It appears to be faster. Still got some glitches. Right now it can't find broom even though I just saw broom.

I'm only adding like if it list only the feminine, the masculine also of that tense of a verb. I'm not adding any conjugations of the verbs other than in the tense taught. That seems like too much of a project to me. What are you doing?

Edit: It finally found broom, but that took forever.

Sorry - I am not sure what to do to make it go quicker.

I am doing present m,s m,p, f,s, f,p. I will try and do my best to complete more in the next few days.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I've got to admire your courage and especially @PtolemysXX's for attempting this project seeing as you are a beginner and he hasn't done the course. It's not easy trying to read another script with all those vowels!

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @PtolemysXX @dakanga We have reached 10% checked! To celebrate, I have added a new feature to help. Duplicate Hebrew / English words will be highlighted in green. Occasionally these will be homonyms, but most of the time, these will be words we can remove.

Image

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:13 pm

(...)
I think this leaves us with 3 options:

  • Keep all the prefix words
  • Preserve the instances in the first skill it comes up in
  • Remove all the prefix words (lexemes)

So far we have stuck with the second option - I'm open to other ideas though. What do you think?

I can think of two major use cases for the flascards:

  1. incremental: one follows the Duolingo curriculum and supports it with a flashcard deck that contains only those words/phrases that have already been taught. New flashcards are being added as one progresses through the course.

  2. one has already finished the entire course and uses a complete set of flashcards to solidify one's vocabulary.

In the first case it makes sense to have separate flashcards for different structures / flected forms of the same words because perhaps some grammar is still missing so it cannot be assumed that one already has sufficient skills to build the derived forms one one's own.

In the second case it can be assumed that one already learned the necessary grammar rules and just needs to train the basic forms of each word. Everything that can be derived in a regular way can be ommited in the flash cards to reduce the deck size.

Creating two separate decks for these two use cases is probably out of question so we need to have some hybrid solution that fits both. That might consist for example in dividing the entire course in two parts: the beginner's part that lists all possible forms and the advanced part (starting with a certain unit) where only canonical forms of a word would show up on the flashcard. Perhaps it would be possible to create some special grammar flashcards showing for example conjugation patterns of all binyan forms.

I have just started going through skill 79 (Future Nif'al). it gives me a lot of headache because like in the case of nouns in other skills in this skill verbs are shown in different conjugated forms in multiple lines. Building future tense of nif'al verbs requires some additional learning but it is regular, so knowing the basic form should suffice to generate all other confugated forms (e.g. using the patterns from Tips & Notes.).

At the moment we have something like this:

I will be lost.PNG
I will be lost.PNG (9.61 KiB) Viewed 33556 times

Multiple conjugated forms of each verb exist on separate flashcards, yet these are not all available forms and the selection differs from verb to verb (some show third person plural, some the first person plural, some have two forms, some three - quite random). There are 23 flash cards but only 10 new words so it would be natural to have only ten cards + conjugation pattern as a separate "heavy weight" card.

What are your thoughts on this?

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@PtolemysXX So it is possible to have sections designated for "tips and notes" on Memrise as you go along - I don't think the same is really true for Anki (Anki is much more exclusively for Vocab). You could as you suggest have "vocab cards" on Anki - but it is not as well designed if people want to go back and look at any particular Vocab cards. So in the approach you suggest - this would be a Memrise course.

I like the plan you suggest - but it would involve first deciding when the "beginners" part ends and the advanced section begins. My suggestion here is that it ends at Adjectives. Adjectives are where you learn "im" and "ot" plurals. That is in my opinion essential to any beginner. After that is food - which is a list of vocab.

The second question is which lemexes / phrases to keep. Some phrases are necessary - there is / to have for example is a skill exclusively with phrases. Generally, the "canonical word form" is the infinitive or the 3rd person masculine or singular masculine. But of course, there are exceptions to the rules - how will we know which are exceptions? You have irregular plurals, geminate verbs, irregular spellings...I do not know enough about vocab to decide here. This to me is the biggest challenge with this approach.

Lets assume that we decide to keep anything which we consider to be original words/phrases. Even then, we would need to learn the entire conjugation ruleset before we could tell a word is an exception.

I also want to hear from @Corinnebelle as this would involve going back and cutting out a number of conjugations - this would take some time but as you say overall it would save time from having to write up the conjugations for all the words.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

I thought I'd play around a bit with the course. Pa'al verbs seem to list alternative answers for masculine, feminine etc.. After that it seems a little less of all the forms. I just did ללכת verbs. I looked up the definition in the search engine and then I went through the deck. It is quite fast as long as I don't have to add too much. But in the past tense you don't have just f, m, fp and mp. You have 1st person (2 words) 2nd person (4 words) and 3rd person (3 words). Future tense is also the same! I don't mind adding words on the same line in Pealim as the ones listed in Duolingo, but adding from all 3 was a bit much. They had words from 1st person and 3rd person. I added all four from 2nd person plus 2 others.

So there's two ways to do this. Just do what's there.

Or only add words from the same line of Pealim. I think that's enough for me, they do cover all the persons from what I saw briefly, but not all on the same verbs so since they have a pattern and since you might be better at Hebrew by then, you should be able to work out the others from those. Of course we could add them all later! I wonder if a script could be built with a list of verbs Duolingo teaches and then they could all be extracted from Pealim that way. Of course Pealim has a different transliteration, but they have nekkudot.

It's up to you Ed.

I've only been getting the spoken version if it says the feminine is not usually spoken, I skip that. I also try to avoid archaic pronunciation.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:57 am

I wonder if a script could be built with a list of verbs Duolingo teaches and then they could all be extracted from Pealim that way. Of course Pealim has a different transliteration, but they have nekkudot.

In theory, this is possible, and it's something I considered - it is easy to get the results from Pealim, but the issue is the filtering.

We want, for example, the niqqud for a word with a particular conjugation - 1st person, singular, feminine, for a particular search result.

By the time you have entered these meta attributes in + the translation for the word so it selects the right search result, waited for the web service to load, and then checked if the result is accurate, little time is saved.

You could write another script that provides you with a series of dropdowns in Google Sheets sidebar - there are several reasons I couldn't do this but the main one is that it would take over a week of full-time programming to write this (backend server, hosted on the cloud, that interacts with appscript). For the time saved, perhaps we are looking at a few hours in total, I don't think this would be worth it. Even if I did this, there would be a bunch of inaccuracies and discrepancies which I think would end up reducing the time saved here.

Another way to do it would be to run a Python script where you could go through and check all 6000 words manually through the terminal. In theory, provided Pealim has all the data (it doesn't), this would be quicker, albeit very time-consuming for the one person who enters and checks the data.

The essential issue is similar to using AI - the accuracy would be fairly accurate - but in 10-20% of cases, you would have to manually check and correct the values.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:57 am

Or only add words from the same line of Pealim.

Thanks for getting back. Doing the same line of Pealim seems to be the best approach in my opinion. It covers most of the responses that come up on the Duolingo course. Except for singular nouns where the plural is not on the list? Adding those plurals doesn't seem a priority as they are unlikely to have come up in the course.

I agree that there is a scope for a version with more complete conjugations. But I think for now, the priority should be getting the basics done, given the scale.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband It is on the same line
https://www.pealim.com/dict/4465-basar/

but we can skip it. Won't get the course done if we add too much!

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

I have a problem with this line:

Menorah.png
Menorah.png (5.87 KiB) Viewed 33440 times



The English translation says "Menorah" but the Hebrew original is "Chanukiya". @Corinnebelle: is "Menorah" part of this skill or is it indeed another line with "Chanukiya"?

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@PtolemysXX A חנוכייה is a menorah used on הנוכה https://www.pealim.com/dict/6876-chanukiya It is a specific menorah with nine branches used during the eight day holiday of Hanukkah. Each day an additional branch of the lamp is lit using the ninth shamash (helper) candle. Hanukkah commemorates the eight days in which oil miraculously burned after the Maccabees drove the Greeks out of the temple.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Corinnebelle wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 8:58 pm

(...) A חנוכייה is a menorah

This is all new to me so I appreciate your explanation a lot :!:

I am just worried that someone may be confused by the flashcards. Is there a reason to translate as חנוכייה as "Chanukiya" and החנוכייה as "the menorah" rather than "the Chanukiya"?

Both pealim and morfix translate החנוכייה as "Chanukah menorah" and they ignore the article ה

Google translates חנוכייה to Menorah and Menora back to חנוכייה, but the actual word for Menorah - מְנוֹרָה - is translated as "lamp". I am completely lost...

Last edited by PtolemysXX on Sat May 13, 2023 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@PtolemysXX Maybe have a definition of: "Hanukkah menorah" for חנוכייה. Or you can go with "chanukiya (menorah)" since this is the name of a specific kind of menorah. This is a new word to me too, although I know a bit about the holiday.

https://educator.jewishedproject.org/co ... -chanukiya

You only need the one word. The "the" (ה-) word (the menorah) is just extra and not necessary for the deck.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Resident Jew here. The Menorah has 7 branches (3 on each side). It is used for decoration.

Here it is being carried out of the Temple, after its destruction.
Image

Here it is on the State Emblem of Israel.
Image

The Chanukiah has 9 branches. The term Chanukiah was invented to distinguish itself from Menorah. However, in the English-speaking world, we would usually refer to the Chanukiah as a Menorah. This is where the confusion comes in. But in Hebrew, Menorah refers to 7 branches and Chanukiah to 9.

This is the American President Obama lighting a Chanukiah with the former President of Israel Rivlin.

Image

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@PtolemysXX If we knew what sort of definition Duolingo used that would help to get the right definition for this word. I believe it was Hannukah menorah, but I'm not entirely sure and the snake won't let me access those lessons yet!

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

Corinnebelle wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:41 pm

I believe it was Hannukah menorah, but I'm not entirely sure and the snake won't let me access those lessons yet!

I do not think it is a big deal. The entry is there, eventually one of us will come across this word in the course so we can correct the translation if needed :)

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@PtolemysXX @Corinnebelle For any word like this - you can search it on the Duolingo forums via Google.

https://www.google.com/search?q=חנוכייה duolingo

It translates on Duolingo as ' Hanukkah Menorah' or 'Chanukiya'

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Great resource wiki fandom

https://duolingo.fandom.com/wiki/Hebrew_Skill:Festivals

Think I mentioned this before, but I had a question about what one of the words in weather was. The definition was way off, so in searching I found this. Confirmed what I needed to know. This has all the words but not all the forms or the pronunciation.

🇺🇸 L1 🇮🇱 Advanced beginner Duolingo levels

Languages without borders, languages bridging gaps, the Red Cross are my heroes.

Post Reply

Return to “Resources”