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[ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

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EranBarLev
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[ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

Post by EranBarLev »

Original post by prompto99 | Archived post

Even though there has been multiple requests of having a new course: European Portuguese, the majority of BP sentences are exactly the same as EP.

I have used IPA to distinguish the differences in phonology

PHONOLOGY

The main issue between BP and EP is phonology and because of that, there are some difficulties in intelligibility. However, due to a high exposure of BP in Portugal, we (the Portuguese) have an easier time understanding BP rather than the other way around. The biggest differences in phonology has to be the prosody. What's prosody you may ask? Well, it is basically the way we pronounce the words. BP is more like the other romance languages on that regard, being a syllable-timed language, meaning that, usually, the words are pronounced with the same length in all syllables. EP is a stress-timed language, which means that syllables have different durations in the word. Usually, in a stress-timed language, a process called vowel reduction happens and Portuguese is no exception! Although it also happens in BP, the reduction is far more present in EP, even creating a weird vowel sound that only EP and Korean have it: "E mudo (ɯ̽)". Theoretically it only exists as an unstressed vowel. However, many people pronounce the 'e' in "pelo/pela/pelos/pelas (through the)" with that "E mudo", but usually we just contract it to "p'lo/p'la/p'los/p'las" respectively...

TCH/DJ or T/D?

In BP, before a high vowel, the consonant T becomes TCH and D becomes DJ. In some dialects (the ones that you are most likely to hear). Parts of Northeast and South of Brazil pronounce it like in EP.

Rio de Janeiro: /hi.u dʒi ʒanejɾu/
Quente: /kẽtʃi/

In EP, a T is always pronounced as T and D is always pronounced as D.

Rio de Janeiro: /ʀi.u dʑənəjɾ̥ʷ/
Quente: /kẽtʰ/

S or CH?

In the majority of Brazilian accents, the S is almost always pronounced as an S except between vowels (pronounced as Z). However, in EP, it could be pronounced differently:

Between vowels: Z (same as BP) | Casa (BP: /kaza/, EP: /kazə/)
Before voiceless consonants: SH | Costa (BP: /kɔsta/, EP: /kɔɕtə/)
Before voiced consonants: ZH | Lisboa (BP: /liz.bo.a/, EP: /liʑβoə/)
Final: SH (However, if the next word begins with...)

Vowel: Z | Os olhos (BP: /ujz ɔʎujs/, EP: /uz ɔl̠ʲɕʷ/)
Voiceless consonant: SH | Os carros (BP: /ujs kahujs/, EP: /uɕ kaʀɕʷ/)
Voiced consonant: ZH | Os dedos (BP: /ujz dedujs/, EP: /uʑ dedɕʷ/)

From my knowledge, the carioca accent (Rio de Janeiro) also has this EP way of pronouncing the S's.

Soft consonants?

This also occurs in Spanish. Basically, EP consonants (more specifically: B/D/G) change to a more soft consonant: β/ð/ɣ/.

β: similar to V but without the top teeth touching the bottom lip.
ð: as in English TH in "other"
ɣ: similar to G but without completely blocking air flow on the g.

  • "É sábado agora" (BP: /ɛ 'sa.ba.dw a.gɔ.ɾa/, EP: /ɛ 'sa.βə.ðʷ ə.ɣɔ.ɾə/)

Dark L or W?

The consonant L is velarized in EP. This means that, unlike BP where you pronounce "mal" as if it were "mau", you pronounce the L but further back in the mouth. Many English dialects have this L as in "feel".

mal (BP: /maw/, EP: /maɫ̪/)

ÂI or EI?

One big difference between BP and EP are vowel sounds. Some diphthongs are even pronounced differently and there are cases where there is only one vowel sound in BP but it is a diphthong in EP. For example:

cheio (BP: /ʃeju/, EP: /ʃəju/)
coelho (BP: /ku'e.ʎu/, EP: /ku'əj.l̠ʲʷ/)

Are we pronouncing the vowels?

One of the consequences of having vowel reduction is that it could lead to a deletion of vowels. That happens a lot in EP. The phrase: "como é que queres que faça isso, pá?" would be contracted to: "com'é q'quer's q'faça isso, pá?" It's just a common thing in EP, contractions!
"how do you want me to do that, man?"

"E mudo"

The famous European Portuguese vowel… You either pronounce this vowel or you don’t, even if you do pronounce it, it is very short which gives the false impression that you are not pronouncing it. How do you pronounce it? Well, I’m no specialist. However, imagine pronouncing the English vowel ‘oo’ in “book”, but instead of rounding it (which is what you would normal would), “unround” the vowel.

Vowel reduction

It's important to explain this a little bit more and to cover unstressed vowel pronunciation:

  • At the end of a word:

PT: vowel reduction is mandatory:

Vowels "o", "e" and "a" are reduced to "u", "ɯ̽", and "ə", respectively:

"Pato": pronounced /'pa.tu/; "gente": pronounced /'ʑẽ.tɯ̽/ (or eliding the final vowel, as explained previously); "casa": pronounced /'ka.zə/.

BR: vowel reduction is mandatory:

Vowels "o", "e" and "a" are reduced to "u", "i", and "ɐə", respectively:

"Pato": pronounced /'pa.tu/; "gente": pronounced /'ʒẽ.tʃi/; "casa": pronounced /'ka.zɐ/.

PT and BR:

Exceptions: vowels won't be reduced if followed by a consonant other than "s", like "caráter", pronounced /kə'ɾa.tɛɾ/ in Portugal, and /ka'ɾa.teɾ/ in Brazil; and "notável", pronounced /nu'ta.vɛɫ/ in Portugal, and /no'ta.vew/ or /nɔ'ta.vew/ in Brazil.

  • Before the stressed syllable:

PT: vowel reduction is the rule, with exceptions:

The vowels described above are reduced when they happen before the stressed syllable as well:

"Professor": pronounced /pɾu.fɯ̽'soɾ/; "abacaxi": pronounced /ə.bə.kə'ɕi/ (all three "as" pronounced as /ə/).

Exceptions: For some words the reduction doesn't happen, due to etymological reasons, like "corar", pronounced /kɔ'ɾaɾ/ coming from the Latin "colorare" evolving to "coorare" --> "còrar" and "pregar", pronounced /pɾɛ'ɣaɾ/ coming from the Latin "praedicare" evolving to "predecare" --> "preegare" --> "prègar" (recent orthographic agreements removed certain accents marks, turning "còrar" and "prègar" to "corar" and "pregar", respectively).

BR: do not reduce vowels as a rule, reduce in some exceptions, but they are never mandatory, the non-reduction may just sound formal in some words we often reduce. Vowels in unstressed position vary in pronunciation depending on the region:

  1. Northern dialects: vowels "o" and "e" are pronounced open, as /ɔ/ and /ɛ/, making "professor" be pronounced /pɾɔ.fɛ'soh/;

  2. Southern dialects: vowels "o" and "e" are pronounced closed, as /o/ and /e/, making "professor" be pronounced /pɾo.fe'soɾ/;

  3. Northern and Southern dialects: vowel "a" mantains its open pronunciation /a/, being pronounced as /ɐ/ only if before a nasal consonant (m, n or nh). Therefore, "abacaxi" is pronounced as /a.ba.ka'ʃi/, but "manhã" as /mɐ'ɲɐ̃/.

Exceptions: for some words, we reduce, although it's not mandatory, it's just common, like "polícia" being pronounced as /pu'li.sjɐ/ and "estrela" as /is'tɾe.lɐ/. Some others, like "fogão" pronounced as /fu'gɐ̃w̃/ are more common in certain regions, like Rio de Janeiro, and not pleasant to others, where /fo'gɐ̃w̃/ or /fɔ'gɐ̃w̃/ are the standard pronunciations.

These different pronunciations lead to some interesting situations, like "morar" and "murar" being homophones in Portugal (/mu'ɾaɾ/), but not in Brazil (/mo'ɾaɾ/ or /mɔ'ɾah/ for the first and /mu'ɾaɾ/ for the second).

More differences

There are more slight differences, but I would have to go in full linguistic mode, if you wish to know more differences, contact me.


GRAMMAR

There are significant differences between EP and BP when it comes to grammar. However, usually, it is the same, although in colloquial speech things can be very different and look like different languages.

Usage of the gerund

When you want to state a continuous action, in BP you would normally use the gerund but in EP things are different, we use a preposition and the infinitive:
I'm playing

BP: Estou brincando
EP: Estou a brincar (lit. I am to play)

What are you doing?

BP: O que você está fazendo?
EP: O que é que estás a fazer? (lit. What is [it] that [you] are to do?)

Building questions

As you may noticed previously, the way we build questions could be different than the way Brazilians do. Keep in mind that "é que" isn't as foreign to brazilians as you may think, but it's generally omitted. This construction of "é que" (similar to the french "est-ce que") is very popular in colloquial speech, but in formal speech we adopt a more brazilian style. This construction is only valid in WH-questions.
What will we do in the future?

BP: O que faremos no futuro? (Formal in EP)
EP: O que é que faremos no futuro?

Who will be the next one?

BP: Quem será o próximo? (Formal in EP)
EP: Quem é que será o próximo?

Are you the next one?

BP: Você é o próximo? (Formal in EP)
EP: És o próximo?

Usage of personal pronouns

  • EU: Used in both EP and BP. However, in EP, it is usually omitted at all costs. We tend to use in order to give some sort of emphasis.
  • TU: Even though some regions in Brazil use it, they still conjugate it in the third person singular: "Tu é" (This is a mistake in EP). In EP we use it all the time on informal occasions.
  • VOCÊ: Generally used all the time in Brazil. In Portugal it is used for formal occasions. Be careful!! In North of Portugal, many people will get offended if you use "você", they prefer to be treated with "o senhor/a senhora" which is the way Brazilians use to treat each other on a more formal way.
  • ELE/ELA: Same usage. Although in BP they tend to use it more often: “I didn’t see him” – BP: “Não vi ele” – EP: “Não o vi”.
  • NÓS: Same usage, although some brazilians prefer to use "a gente" and conjugated it in the third person singular: "a gente é".
  • VÓS: completely archaic in Brazil. The usage of "vós" is JUST in the northern parts of Portugal.
    • If monarchy was still present in Portugal we would use "vós" towards the king (and we would call the king as "el-rei").
    • It could be used in poetry (just like word order doesn't even exist in some poems...)
    • In religious context (roman catholicism) when talking with god or "god" is speaking to us. In fact, the most used prayer uses "vós": "Pai nosso que estais no céu, santificado seja o vosso nome..."
    • And, for us, Nortenhos (lit. northerners), it's not used as much... Especially amongst the youth (I'm no exception). However, we conjugate the verb "ir" with "vós" many times, for example we say:
      "[Vós] ides aonde?" (Where are you (plural) going?). But don't worry, we will still understand you if you say "[vocês] vão aonde?" (some will even say: "[vocês] vão para onde?")
    • Anyways, in rural areas IT IS VERY COMMON to use "vós"
  • VOCÊS: same usage.
  • ELES/ELAS: same usage.

Mesoclisis

Don't ask me what it means, I just searched for the grammatical name of this Portuguese feature. This only occurs in very formal BP, but still used in colloquial EP.
She would take it

BP: Ela o levaria
EP: Ela levá-lo-ia

They will give it to me

BP: Eles mo darão
EP: Eles dar-mo-ão

Verbs

Verb conjugations are generally the same with some small differences:

  • Past tense (preterite): For example: in BP it is spelt as "amamos" but in EP it is spelt as "amámos". However, due to the 1990 orthographic agreement, it's allowed to spell it as "amamos".
  • The conditional tense is usually called "future of the past" in BP. However, in EP it is classified as a separate mood: "Conditional mood".
  • In EP the subjunctive is called "conjuntivo", whereas in BP they call it "subjuntivo".
  • In BP the future tense and conditional have disappeared quite extensively in colloquial speech. Normally, the future tense is substituted by “ir” + infinitive and the conditional is replaced with the imperfect or “ir” + infinitive. In colloquial EP, the same process is happening. However, every once in a while we do use the correct tenses and in formal speech it is obligatory to use them.

Vocabulary

  • Train - BP: trem | EP: comboio
  • Bus - BP: ônibus | EP: autocarro
  • Ice cream - BP: sorvete | EP: gelado
  • Cup - BP: xícara | EP: chávena
  • Refrigerator - BP: geladeira | EP: frigorífico
  • Brown - BP: marrom | EP: castanho
  • Pineapple - BP: abacaxi | EP: ananás (This is highly debatable)
  • Jellyfish - BP: água-viva | EP: alforreca
  • Nickname - BP: apelido | EP: alcunha
  • Candy - BP: bala | EP: rebuçado
  • Dog - BP: cachorro | EP: cão
  • Lorry - BP: caminhão | EP: camião
  • Mobile phone - BP: celular | EP: telemóvel
  • Team - BP: time | EP: equipa
  • Plumber - BP: encanador | South of Portugal: canalizador | North of Portugal: picheleiro

And there are more and more differences like this, but usually the most basic vocabulary is the same.


I really tried my best and what I have in my brain to this topic, if there is something wrong or something you believe it is useful to add here, don't hesitate to comment. If you wish to contact me, comment below.

Image

vascotuga251

Corrections and small contributions:
Dezo_
LICA98
Febrentu

Last edited by EranBarLev on Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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EranBarLev
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Re: [ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

Post by EranBarLev »

Archived post

Original comment by blurflux

Another important detail to mention is that we do use tu in many parts of Brazil, but it is usually conjugated as third person, just like você/cê, o senhor and a senhora (we substitute pronouns for these last two nouns, depending on gender, when we want to address someone formally and respectfully).

Few dialects of Brazil, such as those of some parts of Rio Grande do Sul and Pará, actually conjugate it as a second person, and in much of Northeastern Brazil (particularly from Alagoas to Maranhão IIRC), there is a phonologically simplified form of second person conjugation (e.g. 'tu visse?' instead of 'tu viste?' for 'have you seen it?/did you see that?')

The third person conjugation of tu, as well as the reduced form of você, cê/'cê, is both extremely informal and is almost never used in serious published writing, and tends to communicate youth slang or regional dialects when used in other forms of media, such as television or radio, while the second person conjugation is extremely dated and only used when emulating people who speak those dialects as well as European or African Portuguese.

On a final note, like Adam735887 mentioned, while tu communicates informality, and você, o senhor and a senhora in Portugal communicate formality, the first one of the last three also communicates equality as opposed to respect, and the combination of equality and formality often translates as distance, so Portuguese people might take it as cold if you 'você' them (unless you are obviously speaking Brazilian Portuguese, or if you are a foreigner).


Original comment by blurflux

I'd actually really recommend using o senhor or a senhora for one's neighbor, unless they explicitly tell you not to. Particularly if they're some 10 years older than you, older than ~42, and/or older than ~35 and living with a partner/spouse.


Original comment by Scutigera

Are you actually in Portugal Jules? Are you also the, "Intrepid Guide"?

There are several errors in your post and the comment I am replying to here.

The biggest is that "você" simply is not used much in Portugal. At best it is a treatment of equals that do not know (or like) each other well. It is considered rude, crude, insulting, and uneducated. It is tolerated from Brazilian speakers and others who clearly are not from Portugal as it is understood they probably learned the Brazilian version of PT.

Vocês is now just the plural, formal or not.

Nonetheless, these are indirect 3rd Person "treatment" pronouns much like "sir" or "mister" or "ma'am" would be in English.

Vós is the plural of tu. It is not used as much in the south as in the north but that makes sense as it still is very much used in Galician (Spain) from which the Portuguese language was born. And "vosso/a" for the plural possessive is used all over Portugal (and the other PT places besides Brazil). Because "vós" is not used so much anymore some people consider it formal because when they do see it, it is in the bible (same with "tu" for a lot of Brazilians) but it is the direct 2nd Person Plural.

https://portuguese.stackexchange.com/qu ... e-portugal

This is good too and, as you can see not even those in the same place can fully agree:

https://portuguese.stackexchange.com/qu ... sed-today/

In Portugal if people are not comfortable or familiar enough for "tu" then they will use; O/A Senhor/a (with or without name but some use surnames while others use given names with the honorific); the educational title such as, "O Engenheiro" (pretty much anyone with a degree in Portugal gets the title of "Doutor") or; simply the name, O Nuno/A Maria.

Of course these are all also 3rd Person "treatment" pronouns as well so can be for talking to, or about someone.

Here, a 5-year old quote from a native PT speaker here:
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/1272499/Tu-Voce

At any rate, you rarely hear "você", which is implicit, but rather "O senhor/a senhora", "O Doutor", etc. or you simply omit the subject altogether, which is the by far the most common usage, I'd say. See examples below:

  • Desculpe, pode abrir-me a porta, por favor? instead of:
  • Desculpe, O SENHOR pode abrir-me a aporta, por favor? – and by the way, you would never say something like:
  • Desculpe, VOCÊ pode abrir-me a porta, por favor?

In Brazil, tu is regularly used by some 27 million people there which is actually more than the population of Portugal so not really something to dismiss.

Image

And of course, the formal "you" in Brazil is the same as in Portugal.

Last edited by EranBarLev on Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EranBarLev
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Re: [ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

Post by EranBarLev »

Original post by JulesF. | Archived post

I hope you guys appreciate this series of posts! I hope I can post one of these each week. Tell me what you think of this idea!

Estarei ausente na próxima semana, por isso decidi publicar o post desta semana hoje, a 25 de Abril (o Dia da Liberdade de Portugal (Revolução dos Cravos)!

Image

While pronunciation is different in both languages, the spelling is pretty much the same except for the when the words are different. In 2009 an agreement was signed in order to make the spelling of some words the same in European and Brazilian Portuguese. The biggest change was in European Portuguese where most words lost the silent consonants. For example, the word "baptismo" (baptism) lost its "p" in European Portuguese since no one would read the "p". The new word is "batismo" which is exactly how it was said in Brazilian Portuguese even before the agreement was implemented.

Boa sorte!


Original comment by blurflux

Well, those were merely etymological. I dare to say that it was harsher on us Brazilians to lose ü, which would previously indicate where to pronounce /kwɛ/, /gwɛ/, /kwe/, /gwe/, /kwi/ and /gwi/ (formerly qüe/qüé, güe/güé, qüe/qüê, güe/güê, qüi and güi) as opposed to /kɛ/, /gɛ/, /ke/, /ge/, /ki/ and /gi/ (que/qué, gue/gué, que/quê, gue/guê, qui, gui), as it is done in Spanish.

Now, people would not know that sagui (formerly sagüi), a primate native to the Atlantic Forest of the eastern coastal mountains and valleys of Brazil, is pronounced /sa'gwi/ instead of /sa'gi/ or even /sa'guj/ (indeed, the latter is more unlikely as it would be written *sagúi, but understanding the logic of those orthographical conventions is not a second-to-nature task).

Last edited by EranBarLev on Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

Post by EranBarLev »

Original post by JulesF. | Archived post

I hope you guys appreciate this series of posts! I hope I can post one of these each week.

Estou de volta!

Image

For example, let's take the way "I love you" is said in Portuguese. First of all, as explained before, you can omit the personal pronoun "I" (which is "Eu") yet it is much more common to do so in European Portuguese than in Brazilian Portuguese as it sounds better in both types that way. That said, in European Portuguese we would simply say "amo-te" while in Brazilian Portuguese we would have to say "Eu te amo". The "te", which refers to "you" changes its position in the sentence according to the type of Portuguese you are writing or reading.

Pronouncing this word or sentence is incredibly different too. As we saw earlier, Brazilian Portuguese is pronounced with an open accent while European Portuguese uses a closed accent. While in South America, natives would say this sentence as "eu tchi amo", in Europe natives would say something like "am't" cutting most of the sound of the vowels.

Boa sorte!

Last edited by EranBarLev on Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EranBarLev
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Re: [ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

Post by EranBarLev »

Original post by JulesF. | Archived post

I hope you guys appreciate this series of posts! I hope I can post one of these each week.

Image

It might be the same language but there are some words that have completely different meanings in European and Brazilian Portuguese: "Rapariga" means "girl" in European Portuguese and is the most common word used for it. But do not call a girl "rapariga" in Brazil. It isn't something they won't understand, on the contrary, they will understand but won't take it as an ordinary word but as an insult – a big one as a matter of fact – as "rapariga" is another word for "prostitute" in Brazilian Portuguese.

"Propina" might sound like a perfectly ordinary word in Portugal. It is the fee students pay in the university. In Brazil, referring to a payment as a "propina" actually means "bribe".
"Apelido" refers to a name on both sides of the Atlantic yet asking for someone's "apelido" in both countries will get you different answers. In Brazil, people will tell you their nickname while in Portugal people will tell you their surname.
"Cara" means "face" in both types of Portuguese. In Brazil it is also commonly used to call someone. Kind of the equivalent to "dude" in English.

Which type of Portuguese is easier to learn?

Portuguese isn't the easiest language to learn, especially if you don't speak Spanish or Italian (which are fairly similar to Portuguese when it comes to grammar). People learning Portuguese tend to say that the Brazilian Portuguese is easier to learn and understand. That happens because of the pronunciation. As Brazilians say all the letters in a word with an open accent, it makes it easier to understand for a foreigner than when the Portuguese cut the sound of most vowels.

One thing for sure is you'll learn the language easier if you decide to study it in the country of its origin. When it comes to deciding whether you should study Portuguese in Portugal or in Brazil, there are some things to take into consideration. Portugal is much smaller than Brazil and it is more of a European country with a Mediterranean climate, while Brazil is a large country where summer lasts all year around. But, besides the language itself, there is one thing that unites these two countries: the people. Whether you go to Brazil or to Portugal, you will be made to feel welcome in both countries and you'll find people available to help you.

What are the main differences between Portuguese and English?

There are a lot of words that are similar in Portuguese and English but there are also a lot of differences mostly in the grammar. The most obvious difference is the verbs conjugations. While in English the regular verbs have the same conjugation for I, he/she or you, we and they, in Portuguese there are different conjugations for every person.
Another significant difference between the two languages is the verb "to be". In Portuguese it has two different meanings: "ser" and "estar". The difference is quite simple but doesn't exist in English: using the verb "to be" to say "I am American" or using it to say "I am in America" is completely different. For the first example, the verb "ser" is used in Portuguese while for the second example it is the verb "estar" that is used. "Eu sou bebedo" (I am a drunk) and "eu estou bebedo" (I am drunk) are two very different things yet in English they sound the same as the verb doesn't change.

In English, the adjective comes before the noun it is referring to while in Portuguese it happens the other way around. For example, while in English we'd say "a red hat", in Portuguese we'd say "um chapéu vermelho" ("vermelho" meaning red and "chapéu" meaning hat).

Which type of Portuguese Should You Learn?

When it comes to deciding whether you should learn European or Brazilian Portuguese, it depends a lot on your personal goals. You'll be able to read in both types no matter which one you'll choose to learn even if there are a few differences. When it comes to speaking and listening, it won't always be easy for you to understand what people with a different accent are saying but, as we've learned, not even the natives can understand each other all the time.

Note: I am sorry to say that this is the end of this series
BUT
As a replacement, I want to do a different kind of weekly series. I don't have any ideas though. I would prefer to do something focused on the European version of Portuguese. If you have any fun ideas for me, just tell me.
Every bit of help will be appreciated!


Original comment by Hebelia.

Great! To add, in Portugal "engraçado" refers to "interesting", and in Brazil means "funny".

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Re: [ARCHIVE] Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

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