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Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Discussie - ik leer: Duits - Engels - Frans


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BalkanGod
Macedonia

Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by BalkanGod »

What would the reaction be if I were to say words like GSM, gij, and kleed,
in the Netherlands to mean cell phone, you, and dress? Would I still be
understood? Would a Belgian speaker appreciate the word choice?

Bedankt.

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[suspended account]

Re: Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by [suspended account] »

In the North-Eastern part of the Netherlands we say ...

  • often "mijn GSM" of "mijn telefoon"

  • never "gij".
    But we will understand it and and think "that person might be Flemish"

  • "kleed" or "kleedje" will never be used for "jurk" and most people will not recognize, that you are talking about a "jurk"

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SweNedGuy
Belgium

Re: Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by SweNedGuy »

Kleed vs jurk: Actually 'Kleed' is a 'Germanism'. "Een jurk" is translated by 'Ein Kleid' in German. In Flanders several words from German origin are used which are not generally recognized as being correct Dutch.

I'd like to add another loan word from Italian which is often used in Flanders: 'autostrade' for 'snelweg' (common Dutch) and 'motorway' (in UK English).

I would not recommend using 'gij'. If you want to sound Flemish, you also need to conjugate 'gij' correctly.
'Gij' is a 'second person plural' whereby the -(e)n from the infinitive is replaced by -t.
In several cases this differs from the 2nd singular: 'Gij zijt', 'Gij kunt', 'Gij moogt'. Again this morphology is comparable to the 'ihr' 2nd plural form in German. Ihr seit, ihr könnt, ihr dürft.

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BalkanGod
Macedonia

Re: Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by BalkanGod »

SweNedGuy wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:59 am

Kleed vs jurk: Actually 'Kleed' is a 'Germanism'. "Een jurk" is translated by 'Ein Kleid' in German. In Flanders several words from German origin are used which are not generally recognized as being correct Dutch.

I'd like to add another loan word from Italian which is often used in Flanders: 'autostrade' for 'snelweg' (common Dutch) and 'motorway' (in UK English).

I would not recommend using 'gij'. If you want to sound Flemish, you also need to conjugate 'gij' correctly.
'Gij' is a 'second person plural' whereby the -(e)n from the infinitive is replaced by -t.
In several cases this differs from the 2nd singular: 'Gij zijt', 'Gij kunt', 'Gij moogt'. Again this morphology is comparable to the 'ihr' 2nd plural form in German. Ihr seit, ihr könnt, ihr dürft.

Thank you, I was wondering about word choice in Belgium to see how people actually talk there. I would not want to sound obnoxious with the word choice. I remember reading something that the Flemish use more Germanic words instead of the French words that one would use in Netherlands Dutch. In normal conversation, one should just stick to standard dutch, or are there more regionalism that one should be aware of? Ex: lift Vs elevator in English.

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SweNedGuy
Belgium

Regionalisms and use of French words

Post by SweNedGuy »

The Dutch use quite a few French words in everyday life. For example: Jus d'orange (sometimes even scrambled to 'judderans') for orange juice whereas in Flanders it is called 'sinaasappelsap' (correct Dutch) or 'appelsiensap' (Germanism).
In Flanders, many French words are found in technical jargon. Usually the Dutch have no idea what a 'tournevis' or a 'dérailleur' might be. The correct Dutch words 'schroevendraaier' and 'versnellingsapparaat' are just more clumsy and longer.

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brucenator
United States of America

Re: Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by brucenator »

To add to this conversation, in videos as recent as 5 years ago you might hear the term sms'en referring to text messaging on your mobile phone (or as a noun, sms'en versturen, sending text messages). For example:

But this language is already outdated. These days the term used is appen (originating from WhatsApp). For example:

Even "appen op fiets" is a safety issue now (think: texting while driving, only while riding your bicycle instead) because of the popularity of bicycles in the Netherlands.

Who knows? In another 5 or 10 years the term may change yet again, but probably not as likely since everything on your mobile phone is an app now.
Bellen, appen. Calling, texting.

By the way, "cell phone" is an Americanism. Most of the rest of the world says "mobile phone." In the Netherlands or Belgium everyone understands telefoon.

Speaking English (American) as first language, Nederlands als tweede taal.

User avatar
SweNedGuy
Belgium

Re: Kleed Vs Jurk (BE vs NL)

Post by SweNedGuy »

It is indeed remarkable how fast language keeps changing. Rather than looking for a north/south divide, preferring GSM over 'mobieltje' and 'sms-en' over 'appen' is a generational divide. The elder generation always will lose: their terminology will find its way to the Dutch language archive.

The switch-over from 'kleed' to 'jurk' in the Netherlands may have taken centuries.

In the medieval ballad 'Heer Halewyn' you can read:

Maar trek eerst uit uw opper kleed,
want maegdenbloed dat sprei zo breed,
zoo 't U bespreide, 't ware my leed.

The word 'kleed' is definitely older than 'jurk' and it was used for both gender.

The dress: jurk vs kleed polemic has been covered on the DuoLingo forum years ago.
At some moment it has been considered to develop a Flemish course (!) You can read the archive here



Last bumped by SweNedGuy on Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:20 am.

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