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Penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi. (en → it) Topic is solved

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Penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi. (en → it)

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Penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi.

en: I think that they have kept the keys.

Duolingo forum topic: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/6129775

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi. (en → it)

Post by gmads »

Translating "to have kept" with the pronominal verb tenersi (si siano tenuti) instead of having used the regular transitive verb tenere (abbiano tenuto):

  • I think that they have kept the keys
    → penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi (?)
    → penso che abbiano tenuto le chiavi ()

definitely sounds strange or convoluted. Something doesn't feel quite right: probably one of the sentences is a bit off.

I first thought about what was mentioned on the forum: "you can add a reflexive pronoun to any transitive verb if you want to add the implication that the action was only to the benefit of the actor", and while it might sound like a good reason to use the Italian "si" particle, that sounds a bit far-fetched to me because of the verb "tenere"… no, it doesn't quite explain it, I mean, it is not the same situation or emphasis as when saying, "mia moglie si beve un caffé".

I started looking at some dictionaries, and contrary to what was said in the forum, that is, that "tenersi is not listed in the dictionary as a transitive form," the first dictionary (wordreference) I checked says:

tenere (tr.)
1. Prendere in mano qualcosa; afferrare
– tenere in mano un libro
– tenere la racchetta con la sinistra

anche tr. pron.:
si teneva i pantaloni perché non cadessero

That "tr. pron" text means that it is a transitive verb used in the pronominal form, so yes, "tenersi qualcosa" is a valid use.

  • si teneva i pantaloni perché non cadessero
    → he was holding on to his pants so they wouldn't fall down

Here are some other examples I found:

– meglio tenersi qualcosa da fare
– basta tenersi qualcosa a portata di mano, poi l'impulso alla scrittura viene
– forse era solo il desiderio di tenersi qualcosa, di serbare per sé un elemento di quella storia

Having confirmed the validity of using the Italian pronominal verb tenersi, we can now translate the Italian sentence back into English just to check how accurate is Duo's original English sentence.

From my point of view, the correct equivalent English sentence should be:

  • I think that they have held onto the keys

So:

  • penso che abbiano tenuto le chiavi → I think that they have kept the keys

  • penso che loro si siano tenuti le chiavi → I think that they have held onto the keys


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