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Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]duome[/mention] It's sad, but thank you for the analysis.

Let me remind / please don't miss it (also no rush). The whole tree seems to be shifted down of one level:

DaliborNovy wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:32 am

@duome About the mapping of Czech from English. It's not as bad as it seemed at the first sight. It seems to be only shifted down of one level. E.g.:

Household ........... links to unit/13/level/1 , it should be unit/13/level/2
Shopping ............. links to unit/39/level/8 , it should be unit/39/level/9
What The?! ......... links to unit/42/level/7 , it should be unit/42/level/8

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by gmads »

gmads wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:56 am
  • I haven't tested it yet

Unit 2. The second Treasure box entry, between Greet people, and Personalized practice, is missing. It corresponds to level 9. The last entries need to be fixed: Personalized practice = level 10; Level up = level 11.

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User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

Thank you, [mention]duome[/mention], it seems to be correct now. At least the main links. (Before "Household", it was similar).

And about mapping of English from Czech.... It seems to be a bit more complicated. Sometimes the level is shifted down, sometimes the unit, sometimes it fits. E.g.:

Jídlo (food) ................ links to unit/2/level/1 , it should be unit/3/level/1 (unit -1)
Barvy (colors) ............ links to unit/9/level/2 , it should be unit/9/level/3 (level -1)
Rodina (family) .......... links to unit/13/level/5 , it should be unit/13/level/6 (level -1)
Věci (objects) ............ links to unit/17/level/1 , this one fits
Místa (places-1) ........ links to unit/17/level/1 , it should be unit/17/level/2 (level -1)
Cestování (travel) ...... links to unit/19/level/5 , it should be unit/19/level/6 (level -1)
Abstrakty (abstract-1) . links to unit/25/level/5 , it should be unit/25/level/6 (level -1)
Sporty (sports) ........... links to unit/33/level/7 , it should be unit/33/level/8 (level -1)
Věda (science) ........... links to unit/36/level/1 , it should be unit/37/level/1 (unit -1)
Události (events) ........ links to unit/39/level/1 , it should be unit/40/level/1 (unit -1)
Vlastnosti (attributes) . links to unit/41/level/5 , it should be unit/41/level/6 (level -1)

Add: I think the more complicated scheme may have to do with the Stories which are scattered along the path. I have highlighted one strange anomaly.

Last edited by DaliborNovy on Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

duome wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:31 pm

@DaliborNovy , and what is there before "Household"?

^^ this is important, can you please take a look and tell me what do you have there before the household lesson?

I'm trying to figure out the dependency on my own progress. It seems to be affecting the mapping.

User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]duome[/mention] OK, here it is:

Unit 1, level:
1: Greet people
2: Use masculine forms
4: Greet people

Unit 2, level:
1: Use feminine forms
2: Use masculine forms
5: Greet people
6: Use neuter forms
7: Use feminine forms
9: Use masculine forms

Unit 3, level:
1: Introduce yourself
4: Use neuter forms
5: Use feminine forms
6: Describe people
7: Introduce yourself
9: Use neuter forms

Unit 4, level:
1: Ask questions
2: Describe people
4: Introduce yourself
5: Use the plural
6: Ask questions
9: Describe people

Unit 5, level:
1: Discuss food and drinks
2: Use the plural
3: Ask questions
5: Talk about animals
8: Discuss food and drinks
9: Use the plural

Unit 6, level:
1: Use the accusative case
2: Talk about animals
4: Discuss food and drinks
6: Address people
7: Use the accusative case
9: Talk about animals

Unit 7, level:
1: Make inquiries
3: Address people
5: Use the accusative case
6: Use personal pronouns
8: Make inquiries

Unit 8, level:
1: Address people
2: Say whose something is
4: Use personal pronouns
5: Make inquiries
7: Talk about colors
9: Say whose something is

Unit 9, level:
1: Use personal pronouns
2: Use the present tense
5: Talk about colors
6: Say whose something is
7: Talk about family
9: Use the present tense

Unit 10, level:
1: Talk about colors
2: Discuss clothing
4: Talk about family
5: Use the present tense
7: Refer to people and things
9: Discuss clothing

Unit 11, level:
1: Talk about family
2: Say how, when and where
5: Refer to people and things
6: Discuss clothing
7: Use basic numbers
9: Say how, when and where

Unit 12, level:
1: Refer to people and things
2: Use conjunctions
4: Use basic numbers
5: Say how, when and where
7: Discuss activities
9: Use conjunctions

Unit 13, level:
1: Use basic numbers
2: Describe the household
4: Discuss activities
6: Use conjunctions
7: Talk about the past
9: Describe the household

Unit 14, level:
1: Discuss activities
2: Say what's happening
4: Talk about the past
5: Describe the household
7: Use numbers
9: Say what's happening

In the gaps, there are Chests and Personalized practices.

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User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

So I'm missing "Use basic numbers" for Unit 13 in my data until I actually get there. Same for every "Level 1 skill" of each unit.

It's funny how every language including Klingon has "teaching objectives" for their skills, but High Valyrian doesn't - it's totally blank :P

User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

DaliborNovy wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:49 pm

... about mapping of English from Czech.... It seems to be a bit more complicated. Sometimes the level is shifted down, sometimes the unit, sometimes it fits. E.g.:

Jídlo (food) ................ links to unit/2/level/1 , it should be unit/3/level/1 (unit -1)
Barvy (colors) ............ links to unit/9/level/2 , it should be unit/9/level/3 (level -1)
Rodina (family) .......... links to unit/13/level/5 , it should be unit/13/level/6 (level -1)
Věci (objects) ............ links to unit/17/level/1 , this one fits
Místa (places-1) ........ links to unit/17/level/1 , it should be unit/17/level/2 (level -1)
Cestování (travel) ...... links to unit/19/level/5 , it should be unit/19/level/6 (level -1)
Abstrakty (abstract-1) . links to unit/25/level/5 , it should be unit/25/level/6 (level -1)
Sporty (sports) ........... links to unit/33/level/7 , it should be unit/33/level/8 (level -1)
Věda (science) ........... links to unit/36/level/1 , it should be unit/37/level/1 (unit -1)
Události (events) ........ links to unit/39/level/1 , it should be unit/40/level/1 (unit -1)
Vlastnosti (attributes) . links to unit/41/level/5 , it should be unit/41/level/6 (level -1)

Add: I think the more complicated scheme may have to do with the Stories which are scattered along the path. I have highlighted one strange anomaly.

[mention]duome[/mention] OK, I comprehended this too:

Věci (objects) ............ links to unit/17/level/1 - this one had just happened to fit. The main (first) link should be unit/15/level/1 - (so original difference: unit +2) . The second is unit/16/level/1 , the third is unit/17/level/1.

So there are skills (e.g. Věci (objects), Věda (science), Události (events) ) which are scattered at levels 1 of three consecutive units. They are probably the skills that only have one (wrong) link now.

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User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

Duome cannot see Unit x Level 1 - it gets replaced with a test session (note "jump here" entries), and when I do the test, it finally gets replaced with an actual skill, but I simply cannot do it for every unit of every course :|

Most of the skills are scattered along the path, some of them would be like Věci (objects) - it's Unit 15 Level 1 and Unit 17 Level 1 - both are invisible until I get there myself. This was the reason for the wrong mapping. Right now there are no links at all for this particular skill - because duome cannot see its links yet. If there are links, the icon gets the first link and the dots below list all of them.

As it stands now the mapping should be (hopefully) correct, with the exception for those skills that happen to be at Level 1, whichever unit - these levels are being skipped.

User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]duome[/mention] Oh so, clear. Maybe it would help to do the very last "jump here" on the path. But I understand you can't do it for every course.

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duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

[mention]st1led[/mention] , is it ok now?

[mention]DaliborNovy[/mention] , it would still be "une centaine" of language pairs, some of them being very tricky )

User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

I know, it would be a lot of work with the translator... Borrowing the account is probably not an option. Maybe this could be done for courses from/with languages which have more users here on duome - app.php/flags . Maybe >= 39 ? :) ;) Maybe with help of people you completely trust.

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]duome[/mention] Just noting that https://duome.eu/YourUsername/progress is now down. Nothing major, just because a few hours ago I announced to Czech users that the skill tree on duome is working again :-)

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User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

If there's an error - please, retry. There are several update "threads", one of them must be down, but it should automatically switch to the next one on page reload. My own page is still working at the moment.

DaliborNovy wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:15 pm

I know, it would be a lot of work with the translator... Borrowing the account is probably not an option. Maybe this could be done for courses from/with languages which have more users here on duome - app.php/flags . Maybe >= 39 ? :) ;) Maybe with help of people you completely trust.

That's what I'm thinking, but it's not quite possible at the moment - every new login would fail because of that reCAPTCHA issue. I reported this to Duolingo, now we're waiting for a fix on their side (hopefully)... Please, keep fingers crossed ;)

User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

The several I've tested, including mine - https://duome.eu/dalibornovy/progress/ - don't work. Yours works for me now (after page data reset and refresh the page).

EDIT: NOW, AFTER A FEW MINUTES, IT WORKS! THANK YOU!

OK, I understand and keep fingers crossed as tight as possible ;)

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by gmads »

Just in case it might be useful for the ongoing discussion...

A while ago I opened the-now-missing-link (I imagine the post must have been edited to remove it because now I cannot find it), which was supposed to show the map of the course one might be taking, and here is how it compared to what my course actually shows (just the first unit).

map from pagemy course
Unit 1 - form basic sentences, greet people (guidebook)Unit 01: Use basic phrases, describe basic actions (Guidebook)
---Jump Here? (Test)
Intro - form basic sentences (lvl 1)Use basic phrases (lvl 1)
Story: Good Morning (lvl 2)Describe basic actions (lvl 2)
Phrases - greet people (lvl 3)Use basic phrases (lvl 3)
Chest: Chest 1Treasure box
Story: A Date (lvl 5)Good morning (lvl 5)
Unit Review: legendaryLevel up (lvl 6)

I imagine there must be some kind of discrepancy, I don't know, maybe regarding the learning tree versions, because from the second unit forward the maps definitely do not match at all.

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User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]gmads[/mention] It was a view of the course-path that admin is working on at the moment, not your course. I assume the owner had a reason to remove it, so I won't put it here.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by gmads »

DaliborNovy wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:13 pm

@gmads It was a view of the course-path that admin is working on at the moment, not your course. I assume the owner had a reason to remove it, so I won't put it here.

I kind of remember him saying that it would correspond to the course one had opened at the moment... the links pointed to the "it" course. Anyway, it didn't match my course.

Yes, I imagined the same and so I didn't put it here either. I just made the reference so it would be clear what I was talking about ;)

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

He was actually talking about the course he is currently analyzing. But the URL format looked to be compatible with other duome URL's. So it might have confused us. Yes, it could have been another "it" course.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by gmads »

[mention]DaliborNovy[/mention],

If I understand correctly... you both are trying to map the Snake to the Tree? If so, what is the sense in doing that? As far as can see the Tree considers only three levels for each unit (as there are only three dots under each unit "leaf"), whereas the Snake now has a variable number of levels per unit. Duolingo levels used to mean another thing, as they were related to the crowns obtained. Now they are just like steps within a unit.

If anything, I think that the objective needs to be the other way round... that is, the Tree would need to match the Snake, thus, each unit should have a variable number of dots below. Maybe, instead of dots, small descriptive icons (like the ones used with the Snake) could be used. That way one could at least know what was going to open after clicking it: a lesson, a story, or a customized practice.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

I keep changing courses so it can be rather confusing having that link here. We needed it once to clarify what's going on. I can set my course to Italian (?) if you would like to compare it to yours once more. I would be interested to know if there's a difference, so as there was a difference with somebody's Spanish course.

I was hoping to make the link available for everyone who wants to sync their data by setting up a temporary password just for this purpose, but it's not possible to log in with a (any) new account right now, so the link is rather useless unless we have the issue fixed.

Regarding the purpose of mapping the tree to the path or vice versa: they claim it's the same set of lessons, rearranged. No matter the levels, sometimes you would like to practice something specific, like subjunctive, and mapping makes it a bit easier to decide what are you going to practice without too much scrolling.

Icons would be more descriptive indeed.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by gmads »

duome wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:27 pm

I can set my course to Italian (?) if you would like to compare it to yours once more.

As I was trying to help by providing the data I had and what I noticed, if the following would work better for you I could instead upload a text file with the info from the eng→ita course that I captured directly from the Snake. The format I used was:

  • one line for the unit name: asterisk space unit-name
  • a line for each lesson name (regardless of it being a story, practice, etc): lesson-name
  • a blank line

Like so:

* Use basic phrases, describe basic actions
Guidebook
Jump Here? (Test)
Use basic phrases
Describe basic actions
Use basic phrases
Treasure box
Good morning
Level up

  • Greet people, talk about food
    Guidebook
    Jump Here? (Test)
    Greet people
    Personalized practice

The web page I uploaded a few days ago was created with this data.

*** addendum 1: By the way, I also did and finished the spa→ita course; I haven't gone through the Snake to copy the texts, but if that info could be of help, I could then do it.

duome wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:27 pm

Regarding the purpose of mapping the tree to the path or vice versa: they claim it's the same set of lessons, rearranged. No matter the levels, sometimes you would like to practice something specific, like subjunctive, and mapping makes it a bit easier to decide what are you going to practice without too much scrolling.

Oh, I didn't know they claimed that.

My suggestion ("the Tree would need to match the Snake, thus, each unit should have a variable number of dots below") arose because I noticed (at the eng→ita course) that topics are scattered throughout several units, and in some cases they appear twice in the same unit. For example, the lesson "Describe people" appears on:

  • Unit 15 ("Describe people, use pronouns"), level 5
  • Unit 16 ("Use numbers"), level 1
  • Unit 16 ("Use numbers"), level 9
  • Unit 18 ("Use the present perfect, describe people"), level 7
  • Unit 19 ("Use the infinitive, use pronouns"), level 6
  • Unit 20 ("Speak formally"), level 4

The most extreme example seems to be that of "Discuss abstract concepts," which appears nine times.

*** addendum 2: Even stories may appear more than once: "A letter to Cristina", at unit 31, lesson10; unit 32, lesson2; "Alert!", at unit 26, lesson 5/10; for example. Do note that I haven't checked if the content is actually the same.

Yes, exactly, usually one wants to practice a specific subject.

duome wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:27 pm

Icons would be more descriptive indeed.

Yes, as there is no descriptive text, they would be of great help.

Last edited by gmads on Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

I just want to add that the Tree is not about Stories or Personalized practices or about something similar (and I think it never will be). The Tree just links to practicing the matching skills. We can do Stories conveniently at https://www.duolingo.com/practice-hub/stories. And personalized practice before complete the Snake. We can reset the course at any time and jump to where we need.

[mention]duome[/mention], I want to ask you a favor. I don't know how the other courses, but both cs <-> en courses have the first two occurrences of all skills very easy. And the Tree will be used more often by students who have completed the course (Snake). I think it would be perfect if it was backwards. So the last occurrence of the skill would be the main link for the skill icon and the dots (or kid - baby icons or something like that) second to last to the first occurrence. If the other courses are similar, I believe it would be much better.

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Toucan
United States of America

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by Toucan »

Since, at least for now, we can't activate the progress tree,
I would love it if someone could make the snake
more tree-like by putting a descriptive caption to the right
of each circle/button/icon (I don't know what to call them)
on the snake.

[BUTTON] Caption: Preterite tense of ESTAR, shopping for clothes
[BUTTON] Caption: Direct object pronouns, visiting grandma

That way we could at least find any lesson we wanted to practice.

Thanks,
joan

User avatar
duome

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by duome »

DaliborNovy wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:46 pm

I think it would be perfect if it was backwards. So the last occurrence of the skill would be the main link for the skill icon ...

Quite reasonable.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by Corinnebelle »

Toucan wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:59 pm

Since, at least for now, we can't activate the progress tree,
I would love it if someone could make the snake
more tree-like by putting a descriptive caption to the right
of each circle/button/icon (I don't know what to call them)
on the snake.

[BUTTON] Caption: Preterite tense of ESTAR, shopping for clothes
[BUTTON] Caption: Direct object pronouns, visiting grandma

That way we could at least find any lesson we wanted to practice.

Thanks,
joan

Hi Joan, Duome unfortunately can't change Duolingo. It's a great idea though. [mention]duome[/mention] has been working on the best he can do with a tree=snake conversion. You can put your Duolingo username into Duome and look at what he's doing. duome.eu/yourusernamehere You'll need to be public when you do this. Just click on a language to see the information. Try checking out resources in your target language. They also have links about this.

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Toucan
United States of America

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by Toucan »

Thanks!

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]Toucan[/mention] If you can't find the skill tree, use this pattern of URL:
https://duome.eu/YourUsername/tree or https://duome.eu/YourUsername/progress .

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

duome wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:38 am
DaliborNovy wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:32 pm

... Are any details of practice sessions type "www.duolingo.com/lesson/unit/45/level/2" visible in the database? Is there a way to link these lessons back to skill names? Then the XP per Skill graph might work one day.

On the old tree every step would be a unique skill with an id; on the new path about half of the steps are practice sessions associated with multiple skills, but duolingo records none of the ids for these "practice" steps, leaving the corresponding field blank, so the answer is no. We cannot rebuild the missing data from "nothing". The XP per Skill graph is still working though. The real issue is that now there are lots of practice sessions thrown into the path, but no details in the data.

We gradually find out that the new path is more like a piggery. I know the graph works for the users who study on the old apps. But I don't think they will work for long. And I think these users usually don't use the graph. If the old apps stop working, what do you think about transforming the graph "XP per Skill (4 weeks)" to "Number of clicks per Skill (4 weeks)"? Would it be theoretically possible? I believe it would help us although anyone can click on anyone's Skill. After clicking, there should be an interval, e.g. 12 hours, when the next click is not counted. But it's not necessary. However, it would be cool if the bar changed color during the time interval :-) If you decide to do something similar, please set the links in the graph to the last occurrence of the skill on the Snake (new path). Again, no rush, until the other issues are solved.

Add: Now I see the graph also works if you are doing the Snake. And there are RAW data with skill names. When you proceed down the path, apart from the unidentifiable sessions it also generates old skill sessions with IDs. But it won't happen when you do a step that you've already achieved. So it means the graph doesn't say anything anyway.

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DaliborNovy
Czech Republic

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by DaliborNovy »

[mention]duome[/mention] Or, I know it's probably extremely non-standard practice... But it's much better, it can work, and return all functionality to the page. If you can afford it in your database...

Can you save every click on the graph (bars) or on the Tree (skills) with the UserName, SkillName (/id) and Timestamp and then join the RAW data to this table on Description = "stories / challenges / checkpoints / etc." (or ID is NULL) and the Time between the "click table" Timestamp + 1 minute and "click table" Timestamp + e.g. 10 minutes? If you only take the first (and unique) results, you can get the Skill Names for these unidentifiable sessions. At least very likely Skill Names. If the user doesn't use the page, there will remain the description "stories / challenges / checkpoints / etc." in the RAW data.

Add: Oh no, there is a time zone problem. But maybe the time zone is listed in the session data? Or UTC time?

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Corinnebelle

Re: Did Duo just kill off the direct links to the old tree?

Post by Corinnebelle »

[mention]duome[/mention] Some extraneous questions once the skills all match and the hard work is done. Will my skills change color? Will I get more crowns?

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