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Men det var...

User avatar
Will709432

Men det var...

Post by Will709432 »

I'm reading two Swedish books at the moment both supposed to be lättläst. However, still finding tricky sentences, like this one, which I'm hoping somebody can help me clear up.

It's from Ali Baba och de fyrtio rövarna:

Ali baba levde på att hugga ved som han sålde i staden, men det var knappt han hade råd att ge sina sex barn mat.

The first part is easy, "he lived on chopping wood which he sold in the city/town"
But I don't get why "det var" after men.. It reads like... but there was barely he had enough to (could afford to feed) give his six children food. I'm confused about why det var is used before knappt. Why not just say men han hade knappt råd...?

User avatar
Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Men det var...

Post by Basler Biker »

Will709432 wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:25 pm

I'm reading two Swedish books at the moment both supposed to be lättläst. However, still finding tricky sentences, like this one, which I'm hoping somebody can help me clear up.

It's from Ali Baba och de fyrtio rövarna:

Ali baba levde på att hugga ved som han sålde i staden, men det var knappt han hade råd att ge sina sex barn mat.

The first part is easy, "he lived on chopping wood which he sold in the city/town"
But I don't get why "det var" after men.. It reads like... but there was barely he had enough to (could afford to feed) give his six children food. I'm confused about why det var is used before knappt. Why not just say men han hade knappt råd...?

The "why noy simply" kind of questions always has multiple answers, right. So I think there is not grammatical reason to write it either way. it's just style. For sure also, reading "stories" or "tales" which were wrritten long/some time ago, may reflect another style from that time, or they may just be more lyrical than strictly needed.

If I compare to Dutch (which I always do because it's closer in linear translations than English)
-- men han hade knappt råd
=> NL: rmaar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> he could barely/scarcely afford (to feed...)

-- men det var knappt han hade råd
=> NL:maar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> .is exactly the same meaning

With "men det var..." the writer refers with "det" explicitly backwards to what was said before "chopping wood and selling"

Whereas with "men han hade knappt råd" refers to nothing special, just saying that "overall" (despite everything he did) there wasn't enough to feed the six children.

PS: let's wait and see If this can be confirmed, or not, by a native speaker. "Our" best native repliers from Duolingo may have switched to "r/svenska", I haven't seen them registering here yet (or they have taken another alias, could be...)


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / learning :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

User avatar
Artemis
Norway

Re: Men det var...

Post by Artemis »

Basler Biker wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:45 am

The "why noy simply" kind of questions always has multiple answers, right. So I think there is not grammatical reason to write it either way. it's just style. For sure also, reading "stories" or "tales" which were wrritten long/some time ago, may reflect another style from that time, or they may just be more lyrical than strictly needed.

If I compare to Dutch (which I always do because it's closer in linear translations than English)
-- men han hade knappt råd
=> NL: rmaar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> he could barely/scarcely afford (to feed...)

-- men det var knappt han hade råd
=> NL:maar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> .is exactly the same meaning

With "men det var..." the writer refers with "det" explicitly backwards to what was said before "chopping wood and selling"

Whereas with "men han hade knappt råd" refers to nothing special, just saying that "overall" (despite everything he did) there wasn't enough to feed the six children.

PS: let's wait and see If this can be confirmed, or not, by a native speaker. "Our" best native repliers from Duolingo may have switched to "r/svenska", I haven't seen them registering here yet (or they have taken another alias, could be...)

I'm not Swedish, but it's the same in Norwegian. This is a typical way to express things in a fairytale. It is like you said, just style. It gives a more distinct rhythm to the sentence.

Native Norwegian, comfortable in English (C1), learning Greek (A2-B1), know some German and a little Spanish

User avatar
Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Men det var...

Post by Basler Biker »

Artemis wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:03 am
Basler Biker wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:45 am

The "why noy simply" kind of questions always has multiple answers, right. So I think there is not grammatical reason to write it either way. it's just style. For sure also, reading "stories" or "tales" which were wrritten long/some time ago, may reflect another style from that time, or they may just be more lyrical than strictly needed.

If I compare to Dutch (which I always do because it's closer in linear translations than English)
-- men han hade knappt råd
=> NL: rmaar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> he could barely/scarcely afford (to feed...)

-- men det var knappt han hade råd
=> NL:maar hij kon het zich nauwelijks veroorloven
=> .is exactly the same meaning

With "men det var..." the writer refers with "det" explicitly backwards to what was said before "chopping wood and selling"

Whereas with "men han hade knappt råd" refers to nothing special, just saying that "overall" (despite everything he did) there wasn't enough to feed the six children.

PS: let's wait and see If this can be confirmed, or not, by a native speaker. "Our" best native repliers from Duolingo may have switched to "r/svenska", I haven't seen them registering here yet (or they have taken another alias, could be...)

I'm not Swedish, but it's the same in Norwegian. This is a typical way to express things in a fairytale. It is like you said, just style. It gives a more distinct rhythm to the sentence.

Nice to see you here Artemis. Thx.


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / learning :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

konstig

Re: Men det var...

Post by konstig »

Will709432 wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:25 pm

It's from Ali Baba och de fyrtio rövarna:

Ali baba levde på att hugga ved som han sålde i staden, men det var knappt han hade råd att ge sina sex barn mat.
[...]
I'm confused about why det var is used before knappt. Why not just say men han hade knappt råd...?

As [mention]Artemis[/mention] and [mention]Basler Biker[/mention] say, this is mostly a matter of style, but even though the sentence would be grammatically correct without it (as in your example), I wouldn't recommend it. As far as I understand this sentence, "det var" connects the content of the second clause with the overall situation, which is explained in the preceding clause. If you remove it, you lose important information. Basically, "det var" foregrounds the situation and causes Ali Baba to seem a bit more passive, more like a victim of the circumstances. Without it there is less emphasis on the connection between cause and effect, even though the cause is only implicit. In a way "det var" makes it possible to communicate this causal relation without explicitly mentioning it. Without "det var" you really need to add more explicit information:

"Ali Baba levde på att hugga ved som han sålde i staden, men konkurrensen var så hård och priserna så låga att han knappt hade råd att ge sina sex barn mat."

"Ali Baba levde på att hugga ved som han sålde i staden, men stadsborna var så snåla att han knappt hade råd att ge sina sex barn mat."

A few examples from the internet:

Advertising their services, Göteborg Energi quotes a customer:

Göteborg Energi wrote:

Jag har alltid varit kund hos Göteborg Energi så det var en självklarhet att ringa er när jag tecknade elavtalet för Beets. Jag använder er även privat. Så det var knappt att jag valde - jag bara ringde.

"Det var" helps to emphasize the company's ability to attract the customer, rather than the customer's ability to make a choice.

http://runeberg.org/karriar/0008.html

runeberg.org wrote:

Det var ju ett sådant väder så det var knappt att jag hann med tåget.

Weather as the active force, the speaker is supposedly not to be blamed for almost being late. In this case the message is so explicit that "det var" becomes redundant. "Det var ju ett sånt väder att jag knappt hann med tåget" is more or less identical in meaning.

http://regionbiblioteket.se/bloggen/page/16/

regionbiblioteket.se wrote:

Dimman låg tjock över skärgården i morse, det var knappt vi kunde skönja några konturer.

Blame the weather, not poor eyesight.

I should probably mention that there are other reasons to use "det var," and my explanation is only applicable to a minority of the cases you would find if you search the internet.

Native speaker of Swedish, reluctant user of English, passionate student of (Mandarin) Chinese, occasional reader of German, casual participant in the green owl's French class.

User avatar
Will709432

Re: Men det var...

Post by Will709432 »

konstig wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:21 pm

...

Thanks for the brilliant and comprehensive answer. I was thinking only yesterday about this sentence again and thinking that maybe it was simply that att was missing, men det var knappt att han hade... But I see from your reply (and others here) that there is a bit more to it, as usual. :)

User avatar
Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: Men det var...

Post by Basler Biker »

Will709432 wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:46 am
konstig wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:21 pm

...

Thanks for the brilliant and comprehensive answer. I was thinking only yesterday about this sentence again and thinking that maybe it was simply that att was missing, men det var knappt att han hade... But I see from your reply (and others here) that there is a bit more to it, as usual. :)

Thanks to [mention]konstig[/mention] ...this is no simple Q&A anymore, it's more like a dictionary ;-)
Med tre mer eller mindre lika svar på rad behövs det knappast någon diskussion på detta forum.


BB - Basler Biker - Positivity and constructiveness will prevail
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / learning :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

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