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¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

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¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by sentence bot 🤖 »

¿Te gustó la cena?

en: Did you like dinner?

Duolingo forum topic: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27990585

Jimbo

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by Jimbo »

¡Sí, que comida tan hermosa! Casi lo sentí que tuve que comerla.

Native language: 🇬🇧. Novice getting towards rookie: 🇪🇸. Beginner: 🇬🇷, 🇯🇵.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:23 am

¡Sí, que comida tan hermosa! Casi lo sentí que tuve que comerla.

What about…

  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comerla
  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comérmela

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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Cifi

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by Cifi »

Would it also work in present tense, e.g. "casi me siento mal por tener que comerla" or "casi me siento mal por haberla comido"? (Yes, it may say something different, I'm just curious if these would be correct and natural sentences.)

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

Jimbo

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by Jimbo »

gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:17 am
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:23 am

¡Sí, que comida tan hermosa! Casi lo sentí que tuve que comerla.

What about…

  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comerla
  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comérmela

'I almost felt bad due to having to eat it'? Yes, those look good.

I think I got too carried away trying to figure out 'I was almost sorry' to consider alternatives. That said, even had I been fully alert, I doubt I'd have thought to use 'por' there. That's another thing I'm going to have to try to remember.

Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?

Native language: 🇬🇧. Novice getting towards rookie: 🇪🇸. Beginner: 🇬🇷, 🇯🇵.

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:28 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:17 am

What about…

  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comerla
  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comérmela

Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?

I truly, sincerely, 1000% :lol: recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:

If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.

I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something :) so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.


:hash:  ㆍespañol ㆍgramática ㆍSentenceDiscussion

Last edited by gmads on Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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Jimbo

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by Jimbo »

gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pm
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:28 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:17 am

What about…

  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comerla
  • casi me sentí mal por tener que comérmela

Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?

I truly, sincerely, 1000% :lol: recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:

If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.

I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something :) so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.

I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.

The problem wasn't me seriously thinking 'comerse' was reflexive, it was that I couldn't figure out what it actually was so started going through all the different types of pronominal verbs that I could think of. Reading the other posts more closely, I'm thinking it's a dative verb?

Although, is the reason that the 'me' in comérmela is classed as a pronominal pronoun because I'm the one both feeling bad and doing the eating? After all, in the example with the dog eating the plants, the 'nos' looked from the description like it was being called to act as an indirect object pronoun rather than a pronominal one? And if you search for 'dative in Spanish', the results, or at least the ones I saw, are for 'le' rather than 'se'?

Even in the one you you linked is mostly about 'le', and while "Se nos van los niños" does use a pronominal verb, it made it clear that the dative part was the 'nos'.

Or, wait, was the 'me' in 'comérmela' in fact an indirect object 'me'?

As usual, I've ended a post somehow knowing both more and less than when I started.

And while I think about it, thank you, @gmads, you often make me think about things, even in English. I read your post about Italian pronominal verbs too (when it popped up as the most recent post in the English section), and it made me think about the verb 'to run' a bit more. While I always knew that words like 'wither' and 'hither' were directional adverbs with the meanings of 'to where' and 'to here', for some reason I hadn't considered the 'to me' in "He ran to me" in the same way, instead thinking of it as an indirect object even though I should've known it wasn't.

That said, there are forms like "I ran him hard" that absolutely do use 'to run' transitively.

Native language: 🇬🇧. Novice getting towards rookie: 🇪🇸. Beginner: 🇬🇷, 🇯🇵.

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: ¿Te gustó la cena? (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pm
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:28 pm

Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?

I truly, sincerely, 1000% :lol: recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:

If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.

I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.

Wow, that post, "el perro…" was my second or third post after I registered here, and since I wrote it after the questions and answers had settled in the thread, I thought it had gone unnoticed :D

Just as in poetry writers take a certain liberty and bend the rules, sometimes I do the same when trying to explain certain grammatical aspects, as I did in that post. I hope it managed to correctly transmit the idea.


Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pm

As usual, I've ended a post somehow knowing both more and less than when I started.

And while I think about it, thank you, @gmads, you often make me think about things, even in English. I read your post about Italian pronominal verbs too (when it popped up as the most recent post in the English section), and it made me think about the verb 'to run' a bit more. While I always knew that words like 'wither' and 'hither' were directional adverbs with the meanings of 'to where' and 'to here', for some reason I hadn't considered the 'to me' in "He ran to me" in the same way, instead thinking of it as an indirect object even though I should've known it wasn't.

Yes, I've also felt that way. One comes to understand a particular aspect, but immediately comes an avalanche of new questions. It takes time for things to settle a little bit.

I agree, usually one begins to question their own language when starting to learn another language. It definitely happened to me after I started studying Italian :D

My latest grammatical thread. Maybe it could be of help to you with your Spanish because the concepts are basically the same. I've been trying to be very careful and methodical to make the concept as clear and simple to understand because after having written a few posts about the indirect object etc, I suddenly came to realize that studying these particular topics is almost like watching a magician making a very slow and close trick in front of us…

  • You cannot do it slower!
    (only six cards: three red and three black) "I do it so slowly, that even I get confused… I get self-astonished!

and not being able to see where and when the trick happened :D Therefore, I am trying to be like the masked magician, revealing the secrets! :lol:


Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pm

That said, there are forms like "I ran him hard" that absolutely do use 'to run' transitively.

Yes, verbs are not inherently transitive or intransitive, instead, they can be used or not in either, or both ways. The example you offer is correct but quite exceptional. The same happens in Spanish, for example with the verb "vivir" (to live), which is "defined" as intransitive, though there's a case where it can be used in a transitive way ;)


Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:34 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pm
Jimbo wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:28 pm

Also, I cannot figure out 'comerse'. I would hope it's normal uses aren't reflexive or reciprocal, and I can't see it meaning 'to get eaten' either. The only other possibility I can think of is 'end up eating'/'find oneself eating'?

I truly, sincerely, 1000% :lol: recommend you to abandon that "reflexive" idea. A thread I had opened about this subject was revived a few days ago, you might want to check it out as it shows why there's no actual use to this "reflexivity" concept:

If you want to read just the last fours posts, that will do.

I originally wrote the first non-pronominal version but I felt it a bit like… mhm it's "missing" something :) so I added the pronominal version. Nothing to do with reflexivity, in this case it just denotes a more enjoyable activity, it makes the action more personal, so to speak. I think I have also written about this, though I would need to search for it. In general terms, for eating and drinking one tends to prefer using the pronominal verbs.

I read it, along with "se estar" Progressive Participle and, by extension, el perro nos come las plantas.

The problem wasn't me seriously thinking 'comerse' was reflexive, it was that I couldn't figure out what it actually was so started going through all the different types of pronominal verbs that I could think of. Reading the other posts more closely, I'm thinking it's a dative verb?

Although, is the reason that the 'me' in comérmela is classed as a pronominal pronoun because I'm the one both feeling bad and doing the eating? After all, in the example with the dog eating the plants, the 'nos' looked from the description like it was being called to act as an indirect object pronoun rather than a pronominal one? And if you search for 'dative in Spanish', the results, or at least the ones I saw, are for 'le' rather than 'se'?

Even in the one you you linked is mostly about 'le', and while "Se nos van los niños" does use a pronominal verb, it made it clear that the dative part was the 'nos'.

Or, wait, was the 'me' in 'comérmela' in fact an indirect object 'me'?

Beware with the terminology! I would really suggest you took some time to make a summary table or a mind map to get your terms correct as then you will be to swim more easily through these concepts.

  • there are only pronominal verbs, there really aren't "types" of pronominal verbs

  • there aren't dative verbs, just pronominal verbs (regarding the topic being considered, of course)

  • the dative term refers only to the indirect pronouns: in Latin there are cases: vocative, accusative, dative, genitive, ablative, but in Spanish they disappeared, they were substituted by pronouns, so, the pronoun is named depending on the complement being substituted: direct object pronouns = accusative pronouns, and indirect object pronouns = dative pronouns

  • there are no pronominal pronouns; from the term pronouns we get others like: pronominal particles (particles that work as pronouns) and pronominal verbs (verbs linked or related to pronouns)

  • direct and indirect personal pronouns exist for the six persons (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, they): {
    me, te, lo/la, nos, os/les, los/las }; { me, te, le, nos, os/les, les }

Hopefully the following ten pointers can act as the tl;dr version of any series of articles regarding this topic.

  1. personal object (direct and indirect) pronouns are the basis of everything:
    me, te, etc

  2. these personal object pronouns substitute both the direct and the indirect objects of the verb:
    veo un gato → lo veo; dijeron un secreto a nosotros → nos dijeron un secreto

  3. many direct object pronouns have the same form as the indirect object pronouns:
    me peina, me compra un regalo (first cause for confusion)

  4. when both objects of the verb are substituted with a pronoun, the indirect one goes after the direct one, and in certain cases it changes its form:
    le lo compré → se lo compré

  5. along the active and passive voice some verbs have a third form: the so-called reflexive voice; in this case there are a few important points to keep in mind

    • the known personal object pronouns acquire a new role and meaning (a new source of confusion), that is, each one now makes reference to the subject having both the role of subject and object: me miro

    • there aren't any actual reflexive verbs, just as there aren't any "psychological verbs"

    • the third person singular pronoun "se" forms part of the infinitive form of the verb: cansarse

    • the conjugated form of the verb uses all the object pronouns:
      me miro, te miras, etc

  6. regardless of the application or use, any verb containing the "se" particle is called a pronominal verb (these conform a real grammatical category)

  7. most pronominal verbs haven't anything to do with "reflexive" actions (only very few do)

  8. the "se" particle of a proper or true pronominal verb, and the corresponding unattached pronouns after it is conjugated, do not fulfill any kind of grammatical role, though they indicate the grammatical person in question, however, they need to be there because they form part of the verb: caerse → el jarrón se cayó (the vase fell); what grammatical role does "se" play? (another source of confusion)

  9. while a dative pronoun is basically an indirect pronoun, the term is not really used to refer to an actual indirect object of a verb, but to a particle that behaves as an indirect pronoun because its meaning is, in general terms, subtle, subjective, ambiguous, and the result of language usage (one last source of confusion)

  10. according to how they might be used, dative pronouns have been categorized in three groups (afaik): dative of interest, ethical dative, and possessive dative

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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