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[Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Moderator: Corinnebelle

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PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

I have a problem with female forms of some professions that appear in skill 76 (Politics). Here they are:

minister (f) - שרה
governor (f) - מושלת
candidate (f) - מועמדת

Pealim / morfix / google translate do not give me convincing translations. Some generic internet searches suggest that the absolute femaile form should end with an "ha" like in the first example, while the "tav" ending belongs to the construct form. Can someone help with this?

I believe another word in the skill also belongs to this category:

מנהיגה

Its current translation is "leadership". Would "female leader" fit better?

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

The transliteration won't give me the correct transliteration for ז'אנר. It transliterates ז' as just a ז :(

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

PtolemysXX wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:20 pm

I have a problem with female forms of some professions that appear in skill 76 (Politics). Here they are:

minister (f) - שרה
governor (f) - מושלת
candidate (f) - מועמדת

Pealim / morfix / google translate do not give me convincing translations. Some generic internet searches suggest that the absolute femaile form should end with an "ha" like in the first example, while the "tav" ending belongs to the construct form. Can someone help with this?

I believe another word in the skill also belongs to this category:

מנהיגה

Its current translation is "leadership". Would "female leader" fit better?

minister (f) - שרה /שָׂרָהּ
I can only find this information on this one. Sometimes you can find the feminine form on pealim when you do a search for it, but not when you click the entry. Sorry I don't know how to send pictures here, or I would show you what I mean.

I'll have to dig around more, or ask for the other two.

And yes, it looks like מנהיגה is the female form of מנהיג, so your translation would be the correct one.

Friedrich Rubinstein

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Friedrich Rubinstein »

Corinnebelle wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:23 pm

@Friedrich Rubinstein The system is pretty simple. You use Pealim or Wikitionary to check things. There is no need of a prior knowledge of Hebrew. @meanon and I have finished the Hebrew course, although I don't know all the words, @PtolemysXX wants to learn and @Ed_Miliband has started the course.

For verbs and adjectives you add anything on the same line of Pealim, for nouns you don't need to add plurals. If you need to add something you use this for the transliteration. If the nikkud is incorrect you copy it from the dictionary and paste it in. The you us the transliteration program so it matches. You check Pealim or Wikitionary to make sure the transliteration is correct.

I can pm you the link, you don't need to even look at it, but if you even found some little mistakes that would be helpful. Thanks for catching that mistake! :)

Thank you for the explanation, that's pretty straight forward. Should rows with related words be moved together if they are scattered (for example,
אויב, האויב and אויבים), and if yes, is there a preferred order (sg, pl, sg+prefix; or sg, sg+prefix, pl)? Also, what does it mean when a Hebrew word and/or its meaning are green shaded? I am unable to detect a pattern there. Like here:

green_shaded.png
green_shaded.png (19.6 KiB) Viewed 7572 times
User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Friedrich Rubinstein The green is just a script that lets you know if the word is a double. We have been taking out words with like כ,ש,ל ה, ו except for in the first lessons they are taught. Sometimes words will be double because of the number or gender, he said she said etc..

We haven't sorted anything like that, that I know. I don't see why you can't, but since this is going into a deck for memorization, you expect it to be random anyway.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

meanon wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:02 pm

The transliteration won't give me the correct transliteration for ז'אנר. It transliterates ז' as just a ז :(

In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the sound /ʒ/ (like the <s> in English pleasure), which occurs in various foreign phrases and proper nouns, is commonly written ז׳‎ (zh)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ז

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User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

PtolemysXX wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:20 pm

I have a problem with female forms of some professions that appear in skill 76 (Politics). Here they are:

minister (f) - שרה
governor (f) - מושלת
candidate (f) - מועמדת

Pealim / morfix / google translate do not give me convincing translations. Some generic internet searches suggest that the absolute femaile form should end with an "ha" like in the first example, while the "tav" ending belongs to the construct form. Can someone help with this?

So I went and asked, and all three of the forms are correct!

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Corinnebelle wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:33 am
meanon wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:02 pm

The transliteration won't give me the correct transliteration for ז'אנר. It transliterates ז' as just a ז :(

In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the sound /ʒ/ (like the <s> in English pleasure), which occurs in various foreign phrases and proper nouns, is commonly written ז׳‎ (zh)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ז

Thank you! I'll add a zh to the transliteration instead of having just the z. Does this sound like a good solution, or is there a better one we can do, since Brill Simplified doesn't seem to have the special characters ( 'ג', 'ז, צ etc.)?

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Friedrich Rubinstein Regarding this.

Sometimes words will be double because of the number or gender, he said she said etc..

We keep those. Just in case I confuse you.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle You might notice that I am testing out a new function for hebrew transliteration. It is in collaboration with the original developer of hebrewtransliteration.app. It is still a work in progress. It should be able to solve most cases of the shva problem when complete though. And any exceptions, we can replace the formula with the text.

User avatar
PtolemysXX
Uganda

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by PtolemysXX »

meanon wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:35 pm
PtolemysXX wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:20 pm

I have a problem with female forms of some professions that appear in skill 76 (Politics). Here they are:
(...)

So I went and asked, and all three of the forms are correct!

In skill 75 (Sports) I came across a few more words that look like female versions of sports-related occupations: coach, athlete, defender etc. I am unable to find these words in online dictionaries so for now I am leaving them in state "needs checking".

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @PtolemysXX @meanon Very excited to say I've created a new column called 'New Translit' (K) that tests the new formula for Shva. I've highlighted the changed cells. Any errors, let me know, and I will try my best to see if we can improve the algorithm before making it final.

In the final version, you can use the custom menu item 'Transliterate Hebrew' to transliterate words. Any errors afterwards will need to be manually fixed. Aiming to get a high enough accuracy that errors are few.

The rules we used are below

  • For every syllable, if the first letter is vocal ["י", "ל", "מ", "נ", "ר"], make it vocal
  • For every syllable, if the second letter is guttural, ["א", "ה", "ע"], make it vocal
  • Two Adjacent Shvas are silent and then vocal
  • If a Shva follows a long vowel, make it silent
  • If the first syllable of a word is וְ (and), make the Shva vocal

These follow the strict rules of 'A Reference Grammar of Modern Hebrew'. There will be exceptions (sadly).

User avatar
dakanga

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by dakanga »

I am going to be able to - I am hoping, also be a minor contributer to the impressive work.

Including tying it up with the current version of the Duolingo course that is being provided to my Duolingo schools account, and that I have pulled out all the words in that currently available course, and matching them back to the current Units.

With the hope that I will also be able to continue to keep it up-to-date with further course developments Duolingo is likely to release/update to.

It is fantasitc the work you are doing !
Including that we are doing it as a community !

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle @dakanga Is it possible for you to provide a list of words in a form that is easily processable (txt, spreadsheet, csv) and then we can cross reference which words from the course are missing? This will be the definitive list we can cross reference from?

Toda Raba!

EDIT: I see you have posted a spreadsheet, I have taken from this. I can use IMPORTRANGE so it always stays up to date with your list!

Last edited by Ed_Miliband on Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband With the two rows of transliteration, when I'm editing for ה at the beginning of word. Do I remove it from both?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle You can ignore the new transliteration, for now. It is really just for testing purposes. I am pushing a new update for it soon that handles long vowels better. Thanks for checking.

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Ed_Miliband wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:31 pm

@Corinnebelle You can ignore the new transliteration, for now. It is really just for testing purposes. I am pushing a new update for it soon that handles long vowels better. Thanks for checking.

Todah!

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I got the long vowels to work, but there are still exceptions like anglit (an imported word) אַנְגְּלִית. It has two consecutive but silent shvas. If you are interested - this is full github thread where I work through the problems with the developer

https://github.com/charlesLoder/hebrew- ... /issues/70

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

Just a heads up that I will be leaving soon for a trip, so I will try to do what I can before then!

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

A few more questions...

-Do we want to keep duplicate words from different skills?
For instance, עצם is the word for "thing, object, bone". Something new I just learned is that when you say the word in the plural
עצמות (f) means "bones" while עצמים(m) means "things". We have one set of "עצם" in the Objects skill, and another set in the
Medical skill.
Another example is the word בית. In the Music Skill, it means a stanza of a song or poem. I added the meaning of
"home" to it, but it is another example of a duplicate.

-I'm so sorry for this question, but what should be checked for in the new transliteration column? :oops:

Also, I've asked about the words that @PtolemysXX mentioned, but have not gotten a reply yet. Will do those words when a reply comes!

User avatar
Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

Hi @meanon

I think it depends on the context

  • If the same word with the same meaning has been introduced earlier on, then it's ok to delete
  • But if the meaning is unrelated to the topic at hand, it's ok to keep the later version. For example, the Objects skill, 'thing, object' is a reasonable definition and 'bone for the Medical skill is also valid.

The way I see it is like homonyms in English. If I am teaching a lesson on weapons and I saw "bow", then also teaching the word could be "bow" as in the action, this would add confusion. @Corinnebelle I hope this is ok.

With the new transliterations:

  • In theory, everything should be correct, except for the shva. It's the two vertical dots underneath a word שְׁ. Sometimes it is vocal and sometimes it is silent. There are some exceptions for this that a rule-based system cannot not catch out. Let me know if you spot any issues.

Thanks again for everything! Enjoy the trip!

User avatar
meanon

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by meanon »

PtolemysXX wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:14 pm
meanon wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:35 pm
PtolemysXX wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:20 pm

I have a problem with female forms of some professions that appear in skill 76 (Politics). Here they are:
(...)

So I went and asked, and all three of the forms are correct!

In skill 75 (Sports) I came across a few more words that look like female versions of sports-related occupations: coach, athlete, defender etc. I am unable to find these words in online dictionaries so for now I am leaving them in state "needs checking".

Ok, so things are a bit complicated here. Most of the words have been taken care of, but some words are trickier (athlete and defender). A bit translated from the Hebrew Academy:
"A situation where one word has several meanings is common in the languages ​​of the world, including Hebrew. In many cases both meanings exist in the same word and the context helps understanding, but sometimes a different word is created for one of the meanings"

Basically, certain words are ambiguous in the feminine form, and have not been formally recognized by the Hebrew Academy. This is something about feminine forms that we will probably continue having issues with...
(and another issue is that my hebrew is not at a level where I can research a word on the Hebrew Academy website to tell whether a word is in it's official legitimate form or not 😢)

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband @PtolemysXX I think that sounds right.

עצם two different words, probably related. One feminine, one masculine.
https://www.pealim.com/search/?from-nav=1&q=עצם

בית Is just one word. I don't mind if we do it twice considering the circumstances. But I would think you should probably put both meanings on it so we know it's the same word. What do you think?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/בית

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle As I see, there are several approaches. It really depends on how we see people using the flashcards.

If I am doing the flashcards on just one skill per time, having the words from that skill is probably useful (e.g. object vs bone). Likewise if we want a dictionary from this, keeping them separate makes sense too.

But if I am doing flashcards on all the words in the set, then it is probably helpful to have the combined definitions and not repeat words.

Some definitions are similar - for instance, אוֹהֲבִים means lovers and loves. These make sense to put together.
Some definitions are synonyms; they should always be put together.
I am not sure what to do in the case of בית.

How do you see people using the flashcards / dictionary?

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband If I was doing by skill I would definitely want all the words in that skill. I took out some words which were taught twice, same meaning. Maybe I need to put them back. As a dictionary I would want all the meanings. I suppose something like a note might be good for these words with extra meanings.

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle Here's what I suggest we do -

As a dictionary, provided the word is spelt the same, we can join up words later on. Perhaps separating them using a semicolon. I don't think this will be an issue.

Duplicates in separate skills I think we should keep. This means people can study using both approaches. There are about 120 of these. Luckily we have a list - initial list - that has all the original words. I've listed all the duplicate words. Some will be different meanings but some will be the same. I will look through this list now and add back duplicate words.

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Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

Okay, thanks @Ed_Miliband

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle If you disagree I'm more than happy to do it another way - I'm an amateur, really. How do you feel about this?

User avatar
Corinnebelle

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Corinnebelle »

@Ed_Miliband I've never made these things before either! :oops: I'm no expert. I suppose we could ask if anyone here has made a dictionary and or flashcards. Maybe @meanon @Friedrich Rubinstein has some ideas or @dakanga. Have you made flashcards before Dakanga?

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Ed_Miliband
Great Britain

Re: [Request] Someone who has finished Hebrew Course - Incomplete Vocab

Post by Ed_Miliband »

@Corinnebelle I've added all the duplicates back in. I think. Except the lemexes. However if any of the people tagged would like to weigh in suggestions, I'm open ears.

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