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Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignored

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User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignored

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

Hi Maxime,

@duome

I'm talking about the https://duome.eu/en/pt/ table.
I can find myself a bit down here: https://duome.eu/en/pt/500

Fun facts:

  • The three bonus skills have disappeared in my Portuguese course even I had bought them all three. Have completed them. Last year I did Legendary lessons for 1-2 bonus skills.
  • Old Android app V5.52.5 showed me at least 2 bonus skills, one completely disappeared after bringing it up to Legendary
  • now the app hasn't been showing any bonus skill row anymore for while
  • it was buggy with bonus skills since January 2023: Sometimes they showed up, sometimes they did not
  • my Duome progress (web) page doesn't show 2-3 bonus skills (even I have them finished)

My complains:

1) The sorting of the table and polled user data seems to be out of date.

  • Vocab (lexemes API) is limited to 2940. I can't reach 3000-3563 words.

  • Other users data shows as 91+2, 91+4, 91+3 skills

  • Mine only shows 91 despite having completed three bonus skills

  • Other users data shows 463+5 lessons or 463+9 lessons

  • Mine only shows 463 lessons

  • Same with the lexemes column

  • Other users with less crowns or less XP are above me, only because they have fake data or old words frozen which nobody else (since end of 2016) is likely to ever reach

  • The ranking table with a finished PT course (tree 2016/2018, even before crowns update was rolled out) does not give a true ordering based on reached crowns and XPs.

2) With 80k+ XPs and 243 crowns (L2 is complete) I should be higher in the /en/pt table than other learners with stuck vocab/words data (but less crowns and/or XPs), don't you think?

3) If these are very old users which contain too old (removed) vocabulary or verb conjugations and stems it won't help any other newer learners who are on the platform since 2016.

Maybe just build an internal table in the memory, cut out all the >2940 words / 2919 lexemes numbers and ignore all +x bonus skills and +x lessons.
Then you can order A) first by crowns and B) second by XPs (for all completed trees/paths).

Voila.
The damaged ranking table will be fixed from the out-of-date Duolingo API data and will reflect the true work Portuguese learners have put into over the last 5-6 years.

I doubt that my Vocab/Lexemes will ever increase >3000 if I finish more crown levels or if I complete the new path/snake on the Web.

I will continue to ignore the new path and continue with my old Android app V5.52.5 and actively work on my old PT tree and more crowns.

What do you think? Why do several users have stuck lexemes/vocab with such a high >3000 number? Was a lot changed in/before 2016 in the first tree iterations?

Just an idea to make it a bit more fair.

So far I haven't seen any French/Spanish or English (from ES/PT) learners complain here on the forums about the Duome ranking table language pair data...percentage of shown tree finishers is not high enough; might be the main reason :-)

Best regards from Germany

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

Checking my "extended user profile" I can confirm that bonus_skills and bonus_rows variables inside language_data/pt is just shown like this (empty): [].

I wonder why this is only for me and why other Portuguese learners on their Duome ranking table old cached data gets shown which obviously doesn't exist in the backend system anymore.

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

Alibour
France

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Alibour »

Hello, I do also have ranking issues.
On Duome , I appeared as being 27 weeks on Diamond League, 16 times top 3 finishes but on my phone duolingo application, I have been 28 weeks in Diamond League and 28 weeks top 3 finishes.
The crowns count is also false ... Nothing very important but I do not really understand why such differences. :-)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

I opened a (actually two separate) new bug report(s) yesterday and included this thread link as a detail description.

I also complained about the three removed bonus Portuguese skills which is the main cause why the ranking table is "broken" for me and a few other PT learners and long-term course users.

Last edited by Thomas.Heiss on Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

Others have already switched away from PT (is not active on their side) so their progress for the new 91 skills data (without 2-3 bonus skills) can't be easily refreshed right now.

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

Alibour
France

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Alibour »

Thanks :)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

@duome

Hi Maxime,

I filed a bug report to Duolingo staff about my three removed PT bonus skills :-)
Guess they won't come back.
Of course have heard nothing.

Android App V5.52.5 doesn't display any bonus skill anymore. Was removed in February or something...

A quick fix is to simply refresh all user progress.
But that needs to do a script.
Takes endless to page 500, barely have managed to go up to /100.

Unfortunately way too many former PT learners have already switched over to another course when I'm opening their cached site.
This means no refresh is currently possible from remote to fix the columns (removing the + for bonus).
Only could call their/progress page for very few users to fix the ranking.

Maybe a simple DB script could do that job instead of rewriting your ranking code?

I'm still struggling with the high vocab number from a few users ;)

Last edited by Thomas.Heiss on Wed May 24, 2023 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

Alibour
France

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Alibour »

Alibour wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:13 pm

Thanks :)

Too bad, my crows count was corrected then went down from 2035 to 2027 and now 2010 when I continue to do lessons every single day :shock: How can we loose crown without deleting a language ? :D :D :D

User avatar
duome

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by duome »

@Thomas.Heiss , what would you suggest - shall we simply wipe all the bonus skills/lexemes/etc from the system or ... we can simply ignore those values and exclude them from ranking calculation.

What would be a fair ranking algorithm in your opinion? What would you prioritize?

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

@duome Hi Maxime,

I still have not got back my bonus skills for the Portuguese course and I also have not found them for 2-3 other courses listed in the (Lingots) shop or bonus skill row on the Home/Learn page for my old V5.52.5 Android app.
So my guess is that any ACTIVE learners will get the +2-3 bonus skills and +xx bonus lexemes wiped automatically for the ranking tables once they do a refresh of their Duome /progress page.
But many have switched over to other courses.

Lately I have seen a +4 bonus skill data??? Where does the +4 come from?
No idea how this is possible. There were only three bonus skills end of 2016 and the Christmas skill was very rare as there was a bigger bug crashing the backend system in 2016 or 17 so staff had not offered it anymore to new users in the later years.

I think there's no need to manually wipe / correct all the tables for all learners for multiple courses.
For the new path design bonus skills were not available anymore, not on the web portal (and I guess also not in the newer mobile apps, but have not checked).

What would be the easiest solution for you to implement or fix?
Maybe going with your second suggestion to simply ignore the +xx numbers after the skills and lexemes columns.
How will frontend sortable logic of those two columns then work? Well hm ok, nobody will probably manually select "skills" or "lexemes" and care about how that sort logic still cares for +2, +3, +4 skill or +xx lexemes data.
As long as the normal auto sort ignores and caps at the normal max skills or max lexemes data I'm fine. Is this easy to implement on the backend side for the default ordering?

A fair ranking algorithm (based on crowns, XPs and completed trees or paths to the max) shall definitely IGNORE those nonsense outdated vocab data which is way higher than any words someone like me from end of 2016 can ever reach.

IMHO you don't need to wipe or correct the vocab data; no need to fix the DB from old data when the user's Duolingo API still throws the higher vocab numbers for some very OLD created user accounts at your Duome backend code.
Also I (others probably won't care either) don't mind if manual ordering for the /en/pt table and that vocab column does a different listing then based on the currently shown higher numbers.

But this algorithm shall respect maximum real numbers and correct any irrational given data on the fly:

Code: Select all

Sorted by skills » lexemes » vocabulary » crowns » xp

Edit: Forgot to add that this info box just needs to be adjusted and to tell users that the Duome backend default ordering for the ranking will ignore:

  • bonus skills
  • bonus skill lexemes
  • only be using the real capped vocab from current/up-to-date tree /path versions

Side note: Will it be words or lexemes?? For now we have two columns filled by different lexemes numbers, right? Lexemes column actually is the "Lexemes_ids" which your text explains when someone clicks on the ? explanation on the progress page at the top right. Where is the higher words column from the main profile page? Can you add a third column?

Hint: Some users might be confused that vocab column is NOT words but that the number is the lexemes (not lexemes_ids) coming from the Duolingo Api.
AFAIU you changed "words" on the user profile page under the Languages headline to the higher number, which is fine.
So would be nice to have a third words column in the course ranking tables.

Speaking for the PT course:

  • Max cap at 91 skills (finished tree)
  • Max cap at 2919 lexemes
  • Max cap vocab at 2940 (displayed as "Words" at my cached Duome user profile)

-> Edit: Actually I might be confusing words vs vocab numbers now myself :-)

The more fair and corrected numbers will only care for the two other crowns (max L1-L5 + L6 Legendary levels) and XP columns.
And the text above the table will have to explain it how it sorts and what it ignores and how it now starts playing with capped max numbers (outdated course data from early created accounts or changed tree versions).

Questionable:
Old Android app will support L4-L5 crowns + L6 Legendary.
New path users (web or updated app versions) might see max. L3 crowns (+Legendary).
But that should not hold those users like me back wanting to complete their Portuguese course/tree to max crown levels as long as the Duolingo "extended user profile" still supports that data aggregation and does not lose L4-L5 crown levels in the tracking.

What I don't know:
How Legendary levels are displayed on the new path course data As L6 crown? As L4 crown? Separately tracked (e.g. for the whole Unit it means to manually mark 2-3 skills progressed to Legendary).
I only work on the old PT tree (91 skills) and L6 Legendary crown is only possible when I previously have worked on L4-L5 skills by doing crown sessions (levelling up to the L5 skill marks it as golden).
The Path on the web portal seems to automatically mark some beginner units as Legendary as my PT tree has reached L6 Legendary status currently for 6-7 skills.
But it sets me back at Unit 49 Infinitives despite me having completed the tree in 2017 and 2018 (not on L3 crowns for all skills).
We will see what the path data on Duolingo does once Duome shows me that L3 crown level was reached for the whole PT tree.

For the moment I would say:
Let's not care too much for the very details (like Legendary for a path unit vs Multiple Legendary for each single path level (round circle) in the unit).
The world will not fall down instantly if the Duolingo backend doesn't track the tree vs path data at the best and independently from each other.
So just read those normal skill and user variables like you already do.
Maybe we can split tree vs path data at a later time.

To be honest: It doesn't make much sense if a Duolingo path allows to gain Legendary for the whole Unit (only 8 challenges) or a L3 path level and completely skipping over L4-L5 crowns (which users on the old tree and older app versions need to actively work on). Or is this where "personalized practice" kicks in? I don't know...
But your language / course ranking tables might show the data like this (L6 Legendary) as long as the "Duolingo backend API" / "extended user profile" does any of those auto mappings.
I have not verified this, not yet, sorry. Won't have a chance for this next couple of weeks to learn more about the backend system.

Do you think the bespoken second code solution (simply ignoring the +2-4 bonus skills and +xx lexemes at the end) is easy scalable to ALL the other courses where each course has their own max lexemes_ids/lexemes/vocab/words/skills data?
Do you already use any of those hard limits for set numbers so those max capping numbers are well-known to your Duome backend system?
Won't they change again for different tree versions or expanded pathes?

We can't do much if the Duolingo API still wants to pull +2-4 bonus skill numbers or +xx lexemes from its backend for a few abandoned courses or dropped out users.
So the safest thing to do is simply to "ignore" them in the in-memory tables on your Duome backend, if this is possible.
This probably means having to implement the default sort algorithm on the Duome backend, not by only using a sortable.js file or something like this which magically does all sorting based on the frontend table data.
How does it exactly work at the moment to push the data from the DB without sorting or pre-sorted by defaults to the frontend?
FYI: I'm a Java backend/integration/DB guy so any html/JavaScript frontend stuff and third party JS libraries drives me crazy very quickly ;)

As I said: My personal progress refresh has eliminated those bonus numbers automatically.

But that requires to know ALL max numbers (skills, lexemes, vocab) for each course to overwrite the sort code for in-memory tables on the backend side.

Manually fixing multiple course language ranking tables sounds like a bigger task to me?!?
And the Duolingo backend API might break again your work of fixing the tables for NON-ACTIVEusers (who never switch back to one of those courses and refresh their progress page).

Thinking back of CarlosLM's (Carlos goes by the name Kronenjäger) and Fierycat's thread on the Duolingo community forum about how to use the "Vocabulary API" and pulling the lexemes numbers automatically for each user (from the Duolingo backend) I think we will have to live with the fact that the Duolingo backend will throw us back nonsense / wrong vocab numbers for a longer time (as long as users from 2011-2015 and H1/2016 still have a tracked record of old learned words from old AND migrated tree versions).

Note: Initially the lexemes numbers (vocab column on the progress page or ranking tables, 2919 words number on the cached Duome user profile before you changed it to 2940) was much higher for the Portuguese course.
But after a while Duolingo developers changed again something and the API gave us back smaller numbers (for the lexemes; NOT the words).
That technical thread was from a longer time ago - was not a recent API change.
Maybe I find it again.

Edit: While reviewing and fixing typing erros I have significantly expanded my written text and included new infos with the last save.

Greetings

Thomas H.

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

duome wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:59 pm

What would be a fair ranking algorithm in your opinion?

I)

I can give you some concrete example: https://duome.eu/en/pt/500

Lower XP levels 18, 14, 16, 24 are suddenly above, only because of the bonus skills - and - 2941-2942 words in the vocab column.
No idea how to get 1-2 more words for my finished Portuguese course when the backend API caps it at 2940 (before you used the Vocabulary API which polled the lexemes number which was much higher for several very OLD users).

With the current table data and default frontend sort logic some users get higher ranked at the top with lower XPs:

  • 26247 (L24, 417 crowns)
  • 23574 (L23, 298 crowns)
  • 37196 (L25, but higher 277 crowns)
  • 37246 (L25, but higher 275 crowns)
  • 31784 (L25, only 230 crowns)
  • 20067 (L22, only 191 crowns)
  • 9906 (L16, only 147 crowns)
  • 6167 (L14, only 122 crowns)
  • 13007 (L18, only 188 crowns)
  • etc.

II)

I'm not so sure anymore about the fact that learners with INCOMPLETE trees (or side tracked and converted path data in the "extended user profile") might be ranked higher in the Duome course tables than those users who have actually finished their tree/path at any L1-L5 or L1-3 or L6 Legendary level.

Maybe it might make more sense for other courses like FR from EN, ES from EN, JP from EN, EN from ES/PT to separate very NEW courses and higher skills/lesson/units data from existing course ranking tables?

Is there an easy way to split a table into /en/fr/incomplete (instead of /500) or en/es/incomplete from those users who have actually finished their course and ALL skills/lessons or path units with a golden owl?

It's a very nice Duome feature to come across NEW tree/path data as @MatOzone probably can't know and track EVERYTHING alone on his two https://ardslot.com/duolingodata.html / https://ardslot.com/duolingocrowns.html pages with several accounts.

But for user competition the top at the table and a few hundred pages below shall only list those based on crowns+XPs who have actually completed their currently assigned tree/path.

The https://duome.eu/en/fr or https://duome.eu/en/es ranking tables also show user higher ranked who don't have a finished course progress so you're displaying a washed out language flag (it becomes solid and fullly coloured again with 100% L1 crown completion).

Does it make much sense to go with a default crowns and XP ordering and the other skills/lessons/lexemes/vocab columns in that case?

Well, I don't see a % progress column but the mouse hovering over shows it so the table data has it for each user.
Maxime, do you use it internally for DEFAULT ordering or do you simply ignore the actual course progress when compiling the top ranking tables?

Maybe a separate /incomplete ranking course table is more honest (based on % progress, crowns, XPs).

No idea which course data to put first: Those with more % course progress, higher crowns or XPs or higher vocabulary and more skills/lexemes (without bonus skills).

What do you think is possible speaking about the technical side?
Do you want to keep the default ordering (or what we have bespoken further above about changes to exclude bonus skill and lexemes data) like it is right now mixing

  • finished
  • incomplete
  • tree data from several different tree versions

so there is no "real competion"?

Examples:
I wonder how the user XiaoB923 makes it to the TOP of the https://duome.eu/en/fr table with only 78% progress directly followed by CrescentMoon85 who is placed second with an incomplete 76% progress but 7539 words, 1126 crowns and 492,498 XPs.

HomeHan for example is higher ranked there than John599585 who has way more crowns and quadruple of the course XPs.
Only because of the stupid Duolingo backend outputting 7522 vs 7517 words in the vocab column where both trees have the same data (265 skills)?
Both have only 74% and 75% course progress (incomplete tree); so I guess they either should be put much lower in the table or even better in a separate /incomplete (specific for each course) table.

..(...)..

Sadly to say, I have no clear answer to your question from the above question.
Maybe just let us rank these users at the top who have actually completed an assigned tree/course and scraped together significantly more crowns and XPs rank higher than the rest?!?

If there is a new course version which sets back users significantly to the beginning, removes crowns, resets progress it might not be the priority 1 to list those users with incomplete courses at the top only because of more skills/lessons and lexemes as well as vocab (changed from lexemes from the "Vocabulary API" to learned words).

The Lexemes/words shall be kinda comparable and similar between those learners in the ranking table and newer users (or those from 2016+) shall be given a chance to actually reach the higher lexemes/words which the Duolingo backend gives so a realistic capping of numbers is favourable, hence they need to be ranked higher if they collect more crowns and XPs.

Just some brainstorming.
There might not be "the ideal solution" with too many different course versions for staff-based courses and a Duolingo backend system / API outputting too many different - not directly comparable - lexemes/vocab/words - numbers.

What do others think?

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

User avatar
Thomas.Heiss
Germany

Re: Language ranking table /en/pt should be re-adjusted, removed bonus skills, old skill/lexemes/vocab needs to be ignor

Post by Thomas.Heiss »

@duome

Hello Maxime,

I know as a Java developer myself that development time is valuable and if code changes are too big or would require quite some effort for a re-engineering that requests probably can't be easily fulfilled....that's dev business.
Often you can't realize more simply what some end users or business analysts are dreaming about.

So may I ask you again if some new sort order can more easily achieved in ranking tables like www.duome.eu/en/pt without you having to put into endless of hours of your spare time?

I still would like to see that the Vocab column gets dropped from the sort order.

  • We're still having the bigger issue that the L1-L5 + L6 level (incl. golden tree flag for 100% strength) is not counted in with more priority.

  • Some people are higher in the list even with L1 or L2 levels.

  • A user with L5 is currently placed second, then a few L2+L3 users follow and then once again L4 and L5 trees are somewhere in the middle.

  • The user Danikalifornia is placed on the first spot but only has the L3 crowns level but others with L4 and L5 (or golden trees) follow later.

  • Also the ordering by XP (directly after levels and crowns) is not working in the intended way.

  • First spot only has 69005 XP while the user Redwinger on the second spot has 298102 XP.

If you simply drop the Vocab column from the DB SQL statement then this will get much better, hopefully.

  • Users with e.g. a golden L3 tree (100%) shall be higher ranked than users on a normal L3 crown level but without having achieved 100% strength (if this is even possible on a path).
  • L6 Legendary comes first, then L5 golden tree, L5, only then L4-L1...

Your algorithm "Sorted by skills » lexemes » vocabulary » crowns » xp" which is highlighted in the text description does NOT 100% count that in (as you probably have no ordering by the level column).
The 100% strengh golden thing (for ranking these completed trees a bit higher) would be missing.

This concept of "Sorted by skills » lexemes » vocabulary » level (incl. 100% golden strength) » crowns » xp" should work better for our ranking tables, especially in long established volunteer courses (like French from German).

For the last column "skills" the +2 or +3 bonus skills would still need to be dropped so everyone with a 91 Portuguese skills tree or 129 French skills (from German) is treated the same way.
See my previous comments and suggestions for a detail description.

..(...)..

Personally I would put people with a COMPLETED tree/path first.

In the https://duome.eu/en/fr or https://duome.eu/en/es ranking table (CEFR tree, ultra long, too many constant updates, path changes back and forth) or the two English from PT/ES courses you can clearly see that several users are included in the first page(s) that have no deep coloured language flag which means that their course (new tree, with higher skills) is NOT completed, not yet.
Some of them seem to have achieved a higher progress completion (>90%).

The skill/lesson tree data is a bit strange tracked as so many different path versions now seem to all exist with only minor differences (306, 303, 301, 300, 299, 282, 281, 280, 278, 277, 275, 274, 272,...).
Not sure what to do if the course completion is >90% progress (finishing "soon").

My main idea in the above comments was to move incomplete trees/paths out from the main table and to flag it with some /incomplete Url or similar very different language table.

Where is the benefit in adding all of the different trees and incomplete courses at the top of the www.duome.eu/en/fr ranking table?
In that case there is not any encouragment for users with L6 Legendary, L5 golden trees, L4+L5 trees (completed) much further down in the ranking table if newer + incomplete trees (even with very low progression or low XPs) get ranked much higher in the main competition table.

The big issue for those CEFR courses seems to be that the skills/lesson data is not different enough, only has small changes.
But with several rows below each other so your default "Sorted by skills » lexemes » vocabulary » level (incl. 100% golden strength) » crowns » xp" sort algorithm does not work that great anymore (only having 2-3 to 4 A/B trees in parallel like it was in 2018/19 - 2021/22 before all this path mess started).

Even if you move all not-finished courses to a new /en/fr/incomplete table it will create some mess because the level and crowns columns don't come first with the Sql order statement.

Thinking more about it I would say that the main ranking table /en/fr needs to drop the first skills and lexemes columns from the SQL DB sort statement, to honour some serious work much better for competitions between Duome / Duolingo users.
Someone with more crowns shall come first and the level (+ golden tree for 100%...which hardly will be achievable nowdays with those ultra-long CEFR courses) is the leader column.
If someone has a newer tree but only completed it on L1-L3 crowns and other learners have maybe a few less skills (on a slightly older tree or parallel tree/path with less skills/units) but have achieved a higher crown level - which is still duoable on some old Android app versions or with the Fiddler website workaround - then we should honour their long-term work more.

Again, is this for FINISHED courses (trees or paths) to make the competition between users more accurate.

For the other /incomplete ranking table you can make the level / progress column the leader column if you want and only then to use the skills/lexemes column.

No issue to additionally show the VOCAB column, only for display.
But I definitely would remove it from the SQL DB "order by" statement.

..(...)..

If somebody wants to use any of those Duome target language ranking tables with a very strict focus on skills + lexemes
(+vocab) maybe you need to put it in a new /en/fr/new(incomplete)trees table.

There you don't have to care so much anymore about any achieved level, progress, XPs and for how long a user has been learning or how much work was put into it....only the newest course data shall be placed at the top.
Only showing the "most cutting-edge A/B" tree versions (order by skills/lexemes), even if a learner has freshly joined Duolingo as a NEW user.

Big issue right now is that /new_trees and /incomplete trees can either mean low XP vs higher XP, low progress vs >90% progress:
Some OLD users may have finally received a new tree (with high skills), not everything was RESET to L0 by the DL system, they may have been given the chance to maintain several of their L3+ crown levels.
Only difference is that their language flag is now NOT fully coloured but transparent (they lost their golden owl!), as after their tree/path update not ALL changed/restructured/added or moved skills/lessons (path units) are 100% finished on L1-L3 crowns...but leaving enough L1+ crowns for them on so many L1+ skill crown levels that they still have quite some impressive tree progress (e.g >90%, even 70-85% progress is pretty good with a ultra-long CEFR course where many users will drop out much earlier compared to much shorter courses with 69-129 max skills in a tree).


Q: What do you think about my idea to use maybe 3 tables per language? :-)
If we only have two (complete + incomplete) ranking tables - per language - with the suggested code modifications that info about finding the "latest cutting-edge" tree/path versions on Duolingo (to know if it makes sense to create new user test accounts for those who get easily bored and have finished 1-2 or 3 years ago) doesn't work that great.

At the moment the focus shall be on a separate third table (order by skills/lexemes/vocab like you do it right now) which surely is still some interesting data to see if we need to actively search for it. But the current implemention definitely doesn't honour the crowns, (long-time) progress, work put into, how many years they have been learning their target language (XPs)...to make it to the TOP of your ranking tables - as a competition.

Just writing down my ideas and impressions for some generic brainstorming.
Hope the produced English in this longer comment is good enough to be able to follow it. Sounds a bit rounder to me..
I think I have edited my 3rd or 4th review of the same text with some typo fixes and improved text passages ;)

:de: Native | :us: Upper-B2 (BritishCouncil) | ImageL25 (Duo) / A2 (6+y, McGraw-Hill) - Learning (Busuu): :fr: (A1 McGraw-Hill) | :brazil: (interm.)

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