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[ARCHIVE] All About Articles: Les or Des, Partitive Articles

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Jenga218
Australia

[ARCHIVE] All About Articles: Les or Des, Partitive Articles

Post by Jenga218 »

Image
Originally posted by DXLi

One of the most common questions I see on the English-to-French Duolingo is whether the definite article (le/la/les), partitive article (du/de la), or plural indefinite article (des) should be used. This confusion arises because you can omit articles in English, but you usually cannot in French.

Here are some guidelines on how you can use articles correctly on Duolingo. Note that native Francophones may use them differently, but Duo is very specific about their usage.

When you see an article, translate it directly. "The" will always be definite, "a" will always be indefinite (un/une), and when you see des in French, you can use "some" or just omit it in English. (There are exceptions. See below.)

When articles are missing in an English sentence, they must be added to the French translation. The definite article can be used if one of three conditions is met:

  1. When referring to particular nouns that are known to the speakers.

  2. Before the subject of a sentence to state general truths about it.

  3. Before the direct object of a verb of appreciation (like aimer) to express like/dislike.

If any of the above is true, then use the definite article. Otherwise, use the indefinite or partitive, depending on whether or not the noun is countable. In most cases, use du or de la (partitive) for singulars and des (indefinite) for plurals.

  • I like wine, but I am drinking milk. — J'aime le vin, mais je bois du lait.

Both articles are missing in the English version of this example. Aimer expresses fondness for wine, so le vin should be used there. However, boire is not a verb of appreciation, so the partitive du should be used on the uncountable lait.

  • Cats are animals. — Les chats sont des animaux.

This is a general truth about cats, but #2 above can only apply to subjects, so only chats takes a definite article here. Animaux are countable, so the indefinite is used.

  • He likes to eat meat. — Il aime manger de la viande.

This is a tricky example because meat is the direct object of manger, not aimer. Thus, #2 does not apply and viande cannot take a definite article.

Here's another example: "Local women wear black dresses." Which articles should we use? Think about it for a moment. The correct answer is at the bottom.
Also remember:

  • In negations, indefinite and partitive articles all become de except with être or if you want to stress the negative aspect.

  • For countable nouns, sometimes "some" should be translated as quelque or certaines. These words denote some subset of a larger group.

  • If there's an adjective in front of the noun, des becomes de.

  • If you want to learn more about the partitive, look here.

  • Local women wear black dresses. — Les femmes locales portent des robes noires.

This sentence is making a generalization about local women, so femmes takes the definite article. Robes noires does not, however, because it's not the subject nor the object of a verb of appreciation. However, consider this similar example where les can be used on both:

  • Local women like black dresses. — Les femmes locales aiment les robes noires.

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Jenga218
Australia

Re: [ARCHIVE] All About Articles: Les or Des, Partitive Articles

Post by Jenga218 »

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

I posted a question in a lesson asking why "he often helps others" is translated to "il aide souvent les autres" (instead of "des autres"), and then I found this page -- but I don't see a definitive answer here.

I wonder if there is a definitive answer in this case, or if (a) some uses are just idiomatic, or (b) there is sometimes a choice as to whether to use les or des, depending on the speaker's own conceptualization of the matter, even though nothing really rides on the distinction.

Thoughts? Can someone set me right?

BastouXII wrote:

Des autres is wrong here. We usually use les autres for both "others" and "the others". But when we explicitly want to talk about a subset of the others, des (plural indefinite article) gets shorten to de, itself elided to d' : d'autres. The only way to have des in front of autres is if this des is a contraction of the preposition de and the plural definite article les : il a peur des autres (il a peur de - les autres).

In case you'd understand better with the explanation from someone else, check the best answer to this question (in French).

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

Thank you, you've explained it clearly enough for me yourself.

(However, something I find interesting about the post that you've linked to is that it reverts at times to the determiner that would be used in a "normal" case to explain what the "unusual" construction used with "autres" is getting at, if I can put it that way. In any event, I take it that "autres" can be thought of as something of a special case.)

To follow up on a couple of points, and perhaps help solidify my understanding:

If I want to say "he is afraid of others", I should say "il a peur des autres", as you've written above. And if I want to say "he is afraid of eggs", my sense is that should I say "il a peur des œufs" ("il a peur de", plus "les" because of the general sense of the sentiment). But could it possibly be "il a peur d'œufs"?

And Duolingo teaches "tuer des animaux", but I take it "tuer les autres" is the correct form with "autres", while "tuer des autres" is incorrect. But what about "tuer d'autres animaux"? Does that make sense? And what about just "tuer d'autres", using "autres" on its own as a pronoun? I'm guessing these last two are both okay.

VBastouXII wrote:

The rule is the same whether autres is a pronoun (when it stands on its own to represent some people or things) or an adjective (when it only qualifies a substantive that follows). So you are right about everything in your last paragraph (but for the fact autre can't be a noun, only a pronoun).

You can't say il a peur d'oeufs for the exact same reason why you can't say il a peur d'autres. It's avoir peur de X, plus the definite article les and either the noun oeufs or the pronoun autres. But when autres is an adjective and it is used with a plural indefinite article (des), it acts like any other adjective with des : des gets reduced to de (and it elides since autres starts with a vowel). See the rule about that as the last point in this article.

And about the post I linked, it's not a normal case vs an autres case, it's just showing the intermediate articles before the shortening to help us understand better.

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

Okay, fantastic. And right, pronoun. (But grammatically treated no differently from a noun or noun phrase, which is the sense I was getting at. Though it can be a noun, as in "the Other", says Larousse. But that's neither here nor there.)

Regarding your second paragraph, wonderful! I think I've got it, though I can almost guarantee I'll get it wrong many times in the future.

As for your last point, I see that now. I misunderstood at first, but I'm happy to have been able to read a post in French. On that note, are there any grammar books or grammar book publishers you can recommend, off the top of your head, like a Longman or an Oxford, but in and for French? It would be nice to have it all between two covers.

Thanks very much for your help!

BastouXII wrote:

The reference when it comes to French grammar is Maurice Grévisse's Le bon usage, but that might be a bit overkill.

A bit more accessible (both language-wise and price-wise) is Bescherelle's La grammaire pour tous. They also make an excellent conjugation dictionary, which is the reference in the French speaking world.

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

Awesome!

In fact I have a Bescherelle conjugation dictionary (borrowed, as mine from years ago seems to have disappeared), which I've always just thought of as "a Bescherelle" -- it didn't occur to me that they might publish a comprehensive grammar.

As for overkill, I'm all for it. That's a pretty steep price on the Grevisse, though! Worth it, I'm sure, but perhaps I'll get the Bescherelle for now, see how dedicated I am, and graduate to the Grevisse...

Edited to add: I now have both!


I'm having trouble with this Duolingo question.

The English sentence is "happy employees are good employees". The default French translation is "des employés heureux sont de bons employés".

My issue is that in this sentence "happy employees" refers to the complete set of happy employees, i.e. all of them, whereas it's my understanding that the French "des employés heureux" refers to a subset, i.e. not all of them, only some.

"Les" is also accepted, but I don't understand why "des" would be considered correct, and why it would be given as the default.

Any help?

Edit: Sitesurf to the rescue!


snorrepaatopp wrote:

This post was excellent! I have read the article on about.com several times, but your post was much stronger in explaining the point of generalisations. This was something that Duolingo had almost taught me, but that I had quite managed to decipher on my own. With this knowledge, I can now proceed with confidence, and perhaps stop losing some of those cheap hearts.


SiobanSnyd wrote:

What about generalizations that do not apply to all of a certain group, but are just a descriptive statement. For example: "Do cats live in America? Yes. Cats live in America." The sentence, "Cats live in America." Would become "Les Chats vivent en Amérique." (even though not all cats live in America) right?

What if there is no context? For example, in a storybook about a made up animal called "Les gompgompes". If the book said, "Les gompgompes vivent en Gompleterre." Would the french reader take that to mean "All the gompgompes live in Gompleterre." Or just "The Gompgompes in this story live in Gompleterre, but gompgompes may live elsewhere." Or could it be either?

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

Unless you're talking about "the (specific) cats" referred to earlier in the conversation or otherwise understood to be the cats that are being spoken of, the thing to do is to consider whether you're talking about "all cats" or "some cats".

If you were asking about all cats, you'd ask "Est-ce que les chats vivent en Amérique?" Otherwise, you'd ask "Est-ce que des chats vivent en Amérique?" The answer would be "Oui, des chats vivent en Amérique."

It's a little confusing, partly because the English is ambiguous. We make assumptions because we know that, when speaking of (all) cats, it's true to say that cats live almost everywhere in the world, but it's also true to say that (some) cats live in America, and yet we don't clarify whether we're talking about all or some.

In your story (which I hope you'll complete so I can read), the construction with "les" states that all gompgompes live in Gompleterre, unless there's a very clear indication that you're speaking of the particular gompgompes that have already been mentioned, but not all gompgompes.

SiobanSnyd wrote:

Thanks for the input.

My confusion arose from a couple of exercises. "Elephants live in Asia and Africa" was translated with "Les éléphants vivent en Asie et en Afrique" and "Des éléphants..." was not accepted (even though not all elephants live in Asia and Africa).

And one of the moderators said that "Birds live in Europe" would translate to "Les oiseaux vivent en Europe" (again when not all birds live in Europe).

I translate some formal communications for my company from a french vendor (letters, advertising, etc), and I just want to be sure of the little things like this. I assume using "les" instead of "des" (or vice-versa) in the wrong sentence of a legal document could cause problems.

wrote:

Here's my question to Sitesurf on that page, just posted:

Sitesurf, is this implying all birds? And if so, isn't it more true to life to say "des oiseaux vivent en Asie et en Afrique"?
I can see the case for "les" for elephants, because that's at least where they're indigenous, even though some live in zoos and sanctuaries around the world.
The trouble is that with English, it's ambiguous, but I think, because we have life experience as context, we understand the sentence about birds to mean "certain birds".

Let's see what she says.
Edit 1
Sitesurf's response is a bit more nuanced than I expected and suggests that "des" and my example above about "some cats" is unlikely as a general statement:

[...] The above ["les oiseaux...] is a blanket statement, but you and I have life experience telling us we can find birds on other continents as well.
"Des oiseaux vivent en Asie et en Afrique" sounds a bit weird and I have had to frown a bit to try and find what this could mean. By itself, it does not mean anything relevant.
Yet a bit of context can make it acceptable, even something minimal like "Des oiseaux [+ characteristic] vivent Asie et en Afrique", so as to justify their limited number. "Des oiseaux à bec rouge" could do the job (although I have not checked whether it is true or not).
Otherwise, the specificity can come at the end of the sentence, like "Des oiseaux vivent en Asie et en Afrique dans des volières de bambou". In this case, you can use "some" in English or the alternative "Certains oiseaux" in French.

I'm going to follow up with her and will post again here when I receive a reply.
Edit 2
Here's a link to the whole discussion with Sitesurf:


alanvoe wrote:

What about "J'étudie les éléphants" ? According to your rules, nouns of direct objects should only be preceded with definite articles when used with verbs of preference.

PeaceJoyPancakes wrote:

When "all X in general" is implied, the definite article is required.


alecino wrote:

Sorry, but I didn´t understand this statement: If there's an adjective in front of the noun, des becomes de. Could you give me an example?

BastouXII wrote:

Here's one :

Des oiseaux -> De beaux oiseaux

GraemeSarg wrote:

But what confuses me is what happens when the adjective follows the noun.

I have seen this rule stated as alecino gives it above and I have also seen it stated as "de becomes des when the noun is qualifed by an adjective" (although unfortunately I do not remember where).

I have also seen both "de" and "des" used in front of a noun qualified by a following adjective.

Which is correct?

msinykin wrote:

I have only seen the "des" -> "de" rule apply when the adjective comes before the noun. Some references: https://french.kwiziq.com/revision/gram ... ve-article https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/d ... -articles/

Are you thinking perhaps of the rule for objects of negated verbs, where all of the indefinite and partitive articles change to "de"? See https://french.kwiziq.com/revision/gram ... te-article

Sitesurf wrote:
  • Je mange de belles pommes

  • Je mange des pommes délicieuses

  • Je ne mange pas de belles pommes

  • Je ne mange pas de pommes délicieuses

  • Je mange beaucoup de belles pommes

  • Je mange beaucoup de pommes délicieuses

mitaine56 wrote:

alecino- When the adjective is in front of plural nouns, always de : de belles robes, de belles filles, de beaux bébés.


(Archivists note: There are many comments on this one. I'm up to here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/3683 ... id=3688226 )

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danielfs
Columbia

Re: [ARCHIVE] All About Articles: Les or Des, Partitive Articles

Post by danielfs »

(Archivists note: There are many comments on this one. I'm up to here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/3683 ... id=3688226 )

I hope this helps: https://archive.ph/40nir

Native: Spanish - Fluent: English
Learning: French, Latin, Esperanto, Interlingua

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