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Leísmo on Duolingo

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Cifi

Leísmo on Duolingo

Post by Cifi »

I had a sentence this morning where I wasn't quite sure which pronoun to use and where to put it. The sentence discussion (https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/46994973) revealed that the default translation "Debe haberle lastimado saber la verdad" is leísmo. To my surprise "Debe haberlo lastimado saber la verdad" still isn't in the solution database. They took it for a typo, thus I couldn't even report it in any sensible way.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

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Fer²
Spain

Re: Leísmo on Duolingo

Post by Fer² »

I know I'm the one who called it leísmo in the first place, but now I'm wondering if lastimar could be considered a verbo de afección psíquica in this particular instance. If it were the case, it would make sense to use an indirect object pronoun to express how the action affected him, and we would reserve the direct object pronoun for the case where someone hurt him on purpose. More on the topic here: https://www.espanolavanzado.com/gramati ... molestarle.

I would really appreciate a non leísta speaker's take on this sentence, though.

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Cifi

Re: Leísmo on Duolingo

Post by Cifi »

Thank you for answering, I only noticed it now, ~ 3 weeks late.

The article is interesting with all the different aspects that may influence the choice.

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

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EranBarLev
Israel

Re: Leísmo on Duolingo

Post by EranBarLev »

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gmads
Mexico

Re: Leísmo on Duolingo

Post by gmads »

Cifi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:53 pm

I had a sentence this morning where I wasn't quite sure which pronoun to use and where to put it. The sentence discussion (https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/46994973) revealed that the default translation "Debe haberle lastimado saber la verdad" is leísmo. To my surprise "Debe haberlo lastimado saber la verdad" still isn't in the solution database. They took it for a typo, thus I couldn't even report it in any sensible way.

Fer² wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:20 pm

I know I'm the one who called it leísmo in the first place, but now I'm wondering if lastimar could be considered a verbo de afección psíquica in this particular instance. If it were the case, it would make sense to use an indirect object pronoun to express how the action affected him, and we would reserve the direct object pronoun for the case where someone hurt him on purpose. More on the topic here: https://www.espanolavanzado.com/gramati ... molestarle.

I would really appreciate a non leísta speaker's take on this sentence, though.



After reading the title of the topic and the shared sentence, I first thought about "la," as in, "debe haberla molestado saber la verdad." But then I read the explanation given at the referred page:

  1. The dative (le, les) is preferred when the subject is inanimate or when [animate but] not acting voluntarily or directly on the object. For this reason subordinate clauses introduced by "que" tend to take "le", given they are not active agents.
    – a mi madre le molestan los inmigrantes (ella se siente molesta por su presencia)

  2. The accusative (lo, la) is preferred when the subject is the agent, that is, animate or considered to be acting voluntarily or directly on the object.
    – a mi madre la molestan los inmigrantes (ellos la molestan a propósito)

And it does sound about right. So I thought, well, yes, it should be, "debe haberle molestado saber la verdad" :lol:

In all truth, in a regular conversation, I don't think I would react to hearing one or the other, specially since in Mexico we have our own idiosyncrasies towards the "le" pronoun :shock:

This whole issue depends both on the chosen verb and the particular context in which it is being used. Compare the following sentences (I marked them according to my own perception):

– sé que mi actitud le molesta  
– sé que mi actitud lo molesta   ?

– sé que le molesto con mi actitud  
– sé que lo molesto con mi actitud  

– sé que mi ausencia le lastima  
– sé que mi ausencia la lastima  

– sé que le lastimo con mi ausencia  
– sé que la lastimo con mi ausencia  

Which of the following sounds best or more natural to you?

  1. lo lastimó saber la verdad
  2. le lastimó saber la verdad
  3. lo molestó saber la verdad
  4. le molestó saber la verdad


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