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¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es) Topic is solved

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¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

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¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas!

en: My dads told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants!

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

My dads told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants!

La versión en español está incompleta; les faltó el "te":

¡Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas!


My dads told you [...]

As a side comment, it is worth noting that here we have an example sentence about an individual with at least two dads (possibly more) and an unknown number of mothers (if any).

If all the dads of the one speaking really told the scolded individual to bring butter to cook the eggplants, I definitely would not want to be in their shoes... imagine being told to do the same thing by a number of people... what a nightmare! :x

Given the emphasis, my guess —or at least I would hope so— is that the speaker is quite an emotional person and was simply overreacting.


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Last edited by gmads on Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pawndemic
Germany

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by pawndemic »

gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

My dads told you [...]

Interesting. I would had understood that sentence as

My parents told you…
I thought that it is the same structure as Mis padres dijeron …, maybe a little bit more colloquial.

Is it really "My dads" ?

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

pawndemic wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:37 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

My dads told you [...]

Interesting. I would had understood that sentence as

My parents told you…
I thought that it is the same structure as Mis padres dijeron …, maybe a little bit more colloquial.

Is it really "My dads" ?

Indeed. And you are right on!

  • Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas
  • My parents told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants

Since it is a SP–EN translation, "papás" should have been translated as "parents," but, as we know, DL has a particular inclination for literal translations, thus the peculiar plural: "dads."

I just took advantage of the unusual sentence to ponder a bit about it ;)

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Meli578588 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:44 am

¡Me encanta la berenjena! Freí berenjenas.

🍷

Sí, son deliciosas! Así, simplemente en rodajas y asadas, yummy! Yo las solía hacer rellenas, al horno 🍷

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Cifi

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by Cifi »

gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

My dads told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants!

La versión en español está incompleta; les faltó el "te":

¡Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas!


My dads told you [...]

Is it really? I think the "you" is present, but it is in a different position, as the Spanish sentence uses a conjugated verb, unlike the English with its infinitive.

Isn't it comparable to "I want you to be a teacher" - "Quiero que seas maestro"? You can't drop "you" in English without saying something completely different, but you don't need "te" in Spanish because 2nd person is implied by "seas".

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Cifi wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:51 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

My dads told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants!

La versión en español está incompleta; les faltó el "te":

¡Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas!

Is it really? I think the "you" is present, but it is in a different position, as the Spanish sentence uses a conjugated verb, unlike the English with its infinitive.

Yes, really ;)

The verb "decir" can work as a transitive verb that in addition to needing a direct object it can also include an indirect object: "decir algo a alguien" ("to tell somebody something").

In this particular straightforward structure the indirect object is always replaced by the indirect object pronoun:

– hoy nos dicen nuestras calificaciones (today they tell us our grades)

And not:

– *hoy dicen nuestras calificaciones a nosotros

There is also another possible structure: "decir a alguien que + verbo en subjuntivo" ("to tell somebody to do something)." This structure is used to ask for something or to order something.

In this particular case, the indirect object pronoun is always used, while the indirect object may be included redundantly for the third person singular (this is very common in Spanish).

le dije [a mi hijo] que hiciera su tarea

The same can be done for the second and third plural persons to avoid ambiguity.

les dijeron [a ustedes/ellos] que hicieran su tarea

As seen, the pronoun has more relevance than the complement.

Duo's sentence uses this same structure.


What's the difference between the following two sentences?

  1. mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  2. mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla

In the first case, as the indirect object pronoun and the indirect object are missing, to whom they told the message to be given remains unclear:

  • mis papás [me] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [te] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [le] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [nos] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [les] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
    // in this last case the "les" refers to the third person plural (les = a ellos); it cannot mean the second plural, in which case the verb would need to use another conjugation: mis papás [les] dijeron que trajeran mantequilla (les = a ustedes)

If I were to go the other way round and translate Duo's Spanish sentence into English, I would translate it as: "my parents said you had to bring butter," which most people —I think— would normally understand it to mean that the parents told the speaker to tell him/her that s/he needed to bring butter, that is, most people would understand it to mean: "mis papás me dijeron que trajeras mantequilla."

In the corrected sentence, to whom the parents told to bring butter is totally clear and explicit, and it definitely is the exact and correct translation for "my parents told you to bring butter [...]."

Cifi wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:51 pm

Isn't it comparable to "I want you to be a teacher" - "Quiero que seas maestro"? You can't drop "you" in English without saying something completely different, but you don't need "te" in Spanish because 2nd person is implied by "seas".

No, not really because we are speaking of two different "you" pronouns.

In Duo's sentence "you" is translated into Spanish as "te:" the second person singular indirect object pronoun. In your sentence it corresponds to the second person singular personal pronoun, which can definitely be omitted because the verb conjugation makes clear the person being referred:

  • quiero que [tú] seas maestro
  • quiero que [él] sea maestro

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Jimbo

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by Jimbo »

When I eventually get to this sentence, I'm going to have to check whether the British equivalent 'aubergine' is also accepted.

Also, am I correct in thinking this is the 'polite requests' use of subjunctive imperfect, similar to 'quisiera', or the very round-about method in English of phrasing a request along the lines of "Would it be OK if [subjunctive past here]?

gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

As a side comment, it is worth noting that here we have an example sentence about an individual with at least two dads (possibly more) and an unknown number of mothers (if any).

Duolingo uses 'padres' for 'parents' as part of its early 'get people used to using masculine terms for mixed groups' teaching. That said, whenever I had the chance I usually wrote in 'fathers' for that one, and would write in 'dads' for this one too.

(Ever since the first intro ring when I had the little boy picture saying… actually, I can't remember if he was introducing himself as 'Ana', 'Carmen' or 'Sofía', but whichever one it was I remember thinking 'You tell us! Trans acceptance for the win' and have answered as many questions there in an LGBTQA+ friendly manner as I possibly could from that point on. Speaking of which…)

If all the dads of the one speaking really told the scolded individual to bring butter to cook the eggplants, I definitely would not want to be in their shoes... imagine being told to do the same thing by a number of people... what a nightmare! :x

The linked article is for the wrong singular they. The version used here is the version for a generic or unknown single person, while the definition that was voted word of the year was the version used by enbies and other gender non-conforming people.

(I heard somewhere that in some part of the Spanish speaking world, 'elle' was gaining traction in a similar way, but I don't know if that's true.)

Incidentally, last time I heard, English style guides didn't agree on whether singular 'themself' was a word or not, but the one that said it was said to follow the same rules as yourself v. yourselves.

And yeah, I was initially picturing the speaker as the child of a gay couple, but now, thanks to your comment, I'm picturing the child of a poly relationship, with as many annoyed parental figures as that could potentially bring.

gmads wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:29 am
pawndemic wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:37 pm
gmads wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:25 am

My dads told you [...]

Interesting. I would had understood that sentence as

My parents told you…
I thought that it is the same structure as Mis padres dijeron …, maybe a little bit more colloquial.

Is it really "My dads" ?

Indeed. And you are right on!

  • Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas
  • My parents told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants

Since it is a SP–EN translation, "papás" should have been translated as "parents," but, as we know, DL has a particular inclination for literal translations, thus the peculiar plural: "dads."

I just took advantage of the unusual sentence to ponder a bit about it ;)

I think part of the problem is that English doesn't really have a deformalised version of 'my parents' that's just as generic - it's 'my mum and dad' (or 'mom and dad' if you're American) (and potentially the plurals if you're talking about a poly relationship, a fractured family - which is a technical term and not my choice of wording - including step-parents who've earned the right to have the 'step' dropped from their names, or adoptees who consider themselves to have more than one set of parents), 'my mums' (which wouldn't work here), and 'my dads'. Maybe 'my folks' but I think that's a bit too regional a colloquialism, even by Duo's standards.

gmads wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:20 pm

What's the difference between the following two sentences?

  1. mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  2. mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla

In the first case, as the indirect object pronoun and the indirect object are missing, to whom they told the message to be given remains unclear:

  • mis papás [me] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [te] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [le] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [nos] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
  • mis papás [les] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla
    // in this last case the "les" refers to the third person plural (les = a ellos); it cannot mean the second plural, in which case the verb would need to use another conjugation: mis papás [les] dijeron que trajeran mantequilla (les = a ustedes)

So let's see:

'My dads[/parents] told [me] that you should bring butter', or 'my dads told my that they'd like you to bring butter' etc.
'My dads told [you] that you should bring butter'.
'My dads told [him/her/them {the singular one}] that you should bring butter.' Maybe technically it could also mean 'My dads told [you] (points to one person they're formal with) that you (points to a different, more familiar, person) should bring butter' but that's stretching it and if it was the same [you] it would have to be 'Mis papás [le] dijeron que trajera mantequilla'?
'My dads told [us] that you should bring butter'.
'My dads told [them] that you should bring butter'.

And also, would the vosotros/vosotras version be 'Mis papás os dijeron que trajerais mantequilla'? Or maybe, given that it would probably be in Spain, 'Mis papás os dijeron que trajeseis mantequilla'?

If I were to go the other way round and translate Duo's Spanish sentence into English, I would translate it as: "my parents said you had to bring butter," which most people —I think— would normally understand it to mean that the parents told the speaker to tell him/her that s/he needed to bring butter, that is, most people would understand it to mean: "mis papás me dijeron que trajeras mantequilla."

So was I wrong in thinking it was a polite use of subjunctive imperfect? Because 'had to' is pretty blunt, but my natural inclination in the context that they've turned up sans butter would be to say 'you were supposed to bring butter' and maybe replace the 'to cook the eggplants' with something 'so we could cook the eggplants'.

And if we are going from that context, and that it's not a polite request, then surely 'te' or 'nos' would make more sense then 'me', because if my parents only told 'me' and not 'you', whose fault is that?

Theirs and mine, in that order, not yours.

In the corrected sentence, to whom the parents told to bring butter is totally clear and explicit, and it definitely is the exact and correct translation for "my parents told you to bring butter [...]."

Cifi wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:51 pm

Isn't it comparable to "I want you to be a teacher" - "Quiero que seas maestro"? You can't drop "you" in English without saying something completely different, but you don't need "te" in Spanish because 2nd person is implied by "seas".

No, not really because we are speaking of two different "you" pronouns.

In Duo's sentence "you" is translated into Spanish as "te:" the second person singular indirect object pronoun. In your sentence it corresponds to the second person singular personal pronoun, which can definitely be omitted because the verb conjugation makes clear the person being referred:

  • quiero que [tú] seas maestro
  • quiero que [él] sea maestro

As archaic as it is, I know I found it easier initially to think of 'tú' and 'te' as 'thou' and 'thee' rather than 'you' - it helped me not make that mistake at least.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am

Also, am I correct in thinking this is the 'polite requests' use of subjunctive imperfect, similar to 'quisiera', or the very round-about method in English of phrasing a request along the lines of "Would it be OK if [subjunctive past here]?

It is just the normal use of the subjunctive: it was activated by the "que" conjunction. Anyway, some people might just use the indicative: dijeron que traigas mantequilla.

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am

If all the dads of the one speaking really told the scolded individual to bring butter to cook the eggplants, I definitely would not want to be in their shoes... imagine being told to do the same thing by a number of people... what a nightmare! :x

The linked article is for the wrong singular they. The version used here is the version for a generic or unknown single person, while the definition that was voted word of the year was the version used by enbies and other gender non-conforming people.

(I heard somewhere that in some part of the Spanish speaking world, 'elle' was gaining traction in a similar way, but I don't know if that's true.)

Yes, you are right. Wrong assumption (given the two or more "dads") from my part regarding the subject in question. I should have written, I definitely would not want to be in her/his shoes.

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am
gmads wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:29 am
pawndemic wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:37 pm

Interesting. I would had understood that sentence as

My parents told you…
I thought that it is the same structure as Mis padres dijeron …, maybe a little bit more colloquial.

Is it really "My dads" ?

Indeed. And you are right on!

  • Mis papás te dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas
  • My parents told you to bring butter to cook the eggplants

Since it is a SP–EN translation, "papás" should have been translated as "parents," but, as we know, DL has a particular inclination for literal translations, thus the peculiar plural: "dads."

I just took advantage of the unusual sentence to ponder a bit about it ;)

I think part of the problem is that English doesn't really have a deformalised version of 'my parents' that's just as generic - it's 'my mum and dad' (or 'mom and dad' if you're American) (and potentially the plurals if you're talking about a poly relationship, a fractured family - which is a technical term and not my choice of wording - including step-parents who've earned the right to have the 'step' dropped from their names, or adoptees who consider themselves to have more than one set of parents), 'my mums' (which wouldn't work here), and 'my dads'. Maybe 'my folks' but I think that's a bit too regional a colloquialism, even by Duo's standards.

Regardless of Duo's actual intention, the use of each word is quite clear to me. The first three go along the traditional ways:

Parents → a mother and a father
Mum → one mother
Dad → one father
Mums → more than one mother
Dads → more than one father

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am
gmads wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:20 pm

[...] to whom they told the message to be given remains unclear:

  • mis papás [le] dijeron que trajeras mantequilla

Maybe technically it could also mean 'My dads told [you] (points to one person they're formal with) that you (points to a different, more familiar, person) should bring butter' but that's stretching it and if it was the same [you] it would have to be 'Mis papás [le] dijeron que trajera mantequilla'?

Yes, that could also be the case, using "le" for the formal singular second person (i.e. you).

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am

And if we are going from that context, and that it's not a polite request, then surely 'te' or 'nos' would make more sense then 'me', because if my parents only told 'me' and not 'you', whose fault is that?

Theirs and mine, in that order, not yours.

Anyone's guess, as Duo missed including the IOP.

Last edited by gmads on Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cifi

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by Cifi »

gmads wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:31 pm

Anyway, some people might just use the indicative: dijeron que traigas mantequilla.

Just because this may be misleading: traigas still is subjunctive mood, only present instead of past, isn't it?

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

Cifi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:32 am
gmads wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:31 pm

Anyway, some people might just use the indicative: dijeron que traigas mantequilla.

Just because this may be misleading: traigas still is subjunctive mood, only present instead of past, isn't it?

Right. Thanks.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by gmads »

gmads wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:31 pm
Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am

If all the dads of the one speaking really told the scolded individual to bring butter to cook the eggplants, I definitely would not want to be in their shoes... imagine being told to do the same thing by a number of people... what a nightmare! :x

The linked article is for the wrong singular they. The version used here is the version for a generic or unknown single person, while the definition that was voted word of the year was the version used by enbies and other gender non-conforming people.

(I heard somewhere that in some part of the Spanish speaking world, 'elle' was gaining traction in a similar way, but I don't know if that's true.)

Yes, you are right. Wrong assumption (given the two or more "dads") from my part regarding the subject in question. I should have written, I definitely would not want to be in her/his shoes.

Therefore, a generic, non-gender related, pronoun is actually needed. It's quite tiresome and cumbersome having to write each and every time { s/he, her/his, etc }.

In a thread about inclusive language in Spanish I wrote:

[...] bien puede decirse que la tendencia apunta a que la terminación -e se convierta en un morfema para indicar un género neutro o indefinido o ambivalente o fluido [...] { elles, compañeres, todes, etc }

And then added:

Yo considero que si el cambio morfologico -e ya va a ser una realidad en nuestro lenguaje para denotar un genero neutro o indefinido o ambivalente o fluido, entonces deberíamos aprovechar y de una vez resolver el tema de la economía lingüística y establecer la terminación -u para indicar una inclusividad, ahora sí total —al menos de aquí a que surjan otros grupos que decidan no sentirse incluidos en dicha inclusión :?

Esta terminación en -u, dado su objetivo, sólo aplicaría para los plurales: ellas, ellos, elles, ellus; todas, todos, todes y todus; niñas, niños, niñes y niñus; compañeras, compañeres, compañeros y compañerus; no para los singulares: ella, él y elle; niña, niño y niñe.

So, from my own point of view, two new pronouns are actually needed: one to speak of a generic person, regardless of that someone being a she, a he or a "they," and another for the non-binary, fluid, undefined etc persons.

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Jimbo

Re: ¡Mis papás dijeron que trajeras mantequilla para cocinar las berenjenas! (en → es)

Post by Jimbo »

gmads wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:17 pm
gmads wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:31 pm
Jimbo wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:18 am

The linked article is for the wrong singular they. The version used here is the version for a generic or unknown single person, while the definition that was voted word of the year was the version used by enbies and other gender non-conforming people.

(I heard somewhere that in some part of the Spanish speaking world, 'elle' was gaining traction in a similar way, but I don't know if that's true.)

Yes, you are right. Wrong assumption (given the two or more "dads") from my part regarding the subject in question. I should have written, I definitely would not want to be in her/his shoes.

Therefore, a generic, non-gender related, pronoun is actually needed. It's quite tiresome and cumbersome having to write each and every time { s/he, her/his, etc }.

Don't worry, you can absolutely use singular they for that. It just isn't the same usage as the one that the members of americandialect.org voted word of the word.

In a thread about inclusive language in Spanish I wrote:

[...] bien puede decirse que la tendencia apunta a que la terminación -e se convierta en un morfema para indicar un género neutro o indefinido o ambivalente o fluido [...] { elles, compañeres, todes, etc }

And then added:

Yo considero que si el cambio morfologico -e ya va a ser una realidad en nuestro lenguaje para denotar un genero neutro o indefinido o ambivalente o fluido, entonces deberíamos aprovechar y de una vez resolver el tema de la economía lingüística y establecer la terminación -u para indicar una inclusividad, ahora sí total —al menos de aquí a que surjan otros grupos que decidan no sentirse incluidos en dicha inclusión :?

Esta terminación en -u, dado su objetivo, sólo aplicaría para los plurales: ellas, ellos, elles, ellus; todas, todos, todes y todus; niñas, niños, niñes y niñus; compañeras, compañeres, compañeros y compañerus; no para los singulares: ella, él y elle; niña, niño y niñe.

So, from my own point of view, two new pronouns are actually needed: one to speak of a generic person, regardless of that someone being a she, a he or a "they," and another for the non-binary, fluid, undefined etc persons.

People have attempted to come up with new pronouns in English - here's an example https://pronouns.org/ze-hir/ - but none have really gained traction.

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