[ARCHIVE] Verbs: Compound Past, Auxiliaries, Past Participle Agreement

[Jenga218]

Originally posted by Sitesurf

Compound verbs contain at least two words: a conjugated auxiliary and a past participle. In this unit, we will cover the passé composé (PC), which can translate to the English past simple or present perfect.
The French PC is the tense of choice to translate the English past simple. The French language also has a past simple tense, but it has run out of use, except in formal writing and in third person singular and plural.

• Elle a vu ce chien. — She has seen/saw that dog.

• Ils ont dit la vérité. — They b told[/b] the truth.

In both languages, the compound verb begins with an auxiliary verb (avoir and "to have" here) that is conjugated according to the subject. A past participle (e.g. vu or "seen") follows the auxiliary and remains invariable.
With the auxiliary avoir, the past participle never agrees with the subject.

Auxiliaries
In English, the active present perfect has only one auxiliary verb ("to have"), but the PC has two: avoir and être. Most verbs use avoir.

• J'ai été malade. — I have been sick.

• Il a appelé un docteur. — He has called a doctor.

A handful of verbs use être. The mnemonic "ADVENT" may help you remember these.

Initial Verb	Opposite Verb	Related Verb
Arriver (arrive)	partir (leave)
Descendre (descend)	monter (ascend)
Venir (come)	aller (go)	devenir (become), revenir (return)
Entrer (enter)	sortir (leave)	rentrer (re-enter)
Naître (be born)	mourir (die)
Tomber (fall)

The remaining verbs are passer (pass), rester (stay), retourner (return), and accourir (run up). Notice that être verbs often involve movement or transformation.

• Il est venu. — He has come.

• Septembre est passé. — September has passed.

• Je suis devenu roi. — I have become king.

Also, all pronominal verbs use être.

• Elle s'est souvenue de ses amis. — She has remembered her friends.

• Ils se sont rasés. — They have shaved.

With the auxiliary être, the past participle agrees with the subject.
Object pronouns, negations, and inversions appear around the auxiliary.

• Je l'ai entendu(e). — I have heard him (her).

• Il ne m'a pas trouvé(e). — He has not found me.

• Avez-vous vu les robes ? — Have you seen the dresses?

• Pourquoi l'avez- vous fait ? — Why have you done it?

Past Participles
A participle is a special non-conjugated form of a verb. Most participles are formed by adding an ending to a verb's root.

Group	Ending	Example
-er verbs	-é	manger ⇒ mangé
-ir verbs	-i	choisir ⇒ choisi
-re verbs	-u	vendre ⇒ vendu

Unfortunately, most irregular verbs have irregular participles. For instance, the past participle of venir is venu.

• Il est venu. — He has come.

• Les filles sont venues. — The girls have come.

Note that participles vary with gender and number just like adjectives when the auxiliary is être.

Gender	Singular	Plural
Masculine	venu	venus
Feminine	venue	venues

Adverbs appear right before the participle.

• Je l’ai souvent entendu. — I often heard him/her/it.

• Je vous en ai déjà parlé. — I already talked to you about it.

Participle Agreement
A participle that follows avoir is usually invariable.

• L'homme a mangé. — The man has eaten.

• Les femmes ont mangé. — The women have eaten.

However, if a direct object appears before avoir, its participle agrees with the direct object. Below, vues agrees with the plural feminine robes because les precedes the verb.

• Tu as vu les robes ? — Have you seen the dresses?

• Oui, je les ai vues. — Yes, I have seen them.

A participle that follows être agrees with the subject.

• L'homme est venu. — The man has come.

• Les hommes sont venus. — The men have come.

• La femme est venue. — The woman has come.

• Les femmes sont venues. — The women have come.

However, if a pronominal verb is intransitive, then the participle is invariable. For instance, compare s'appeler (transitive: appeler quelqu’un) to se téléphoner (intransitive: téléphoner à quelqu’un).

• Nous nous sommes appelés. — We called each other. (For a masculine nous.)

• Nous nous sommes téléphoné. — We called each other. (For both genders of nous.)

Using the PC
Translating the past tense can be difficult because the English simple past (preterit) overlaps the French passé composé and imparfait (taught later in the “Past Imperfect” unit). The PC can translate to the preterit when it narrates events or states that began and ended in the past. In this usage, the PC often appears with expressions of time or frequency like il y a, which means "ago" when followed by a duration.

• La fille a mangé il y a cinq minutes. — The girl ate five minutes ago. (A single specific event.)

• Les enfants ont eu froid hier. — The children were cold yesterday. (A state on a specific date.)

• Je suis tombé(e) plusieurs fois. — I fell several times. (Multiple specific actions.)

• Je suis déjà tombé(e). — I already fell. (An event in an undetermined time frame.)

The PC can also translate to the present perfect for actions and states that started in the past and are still true.

• Il n’a jamais mangé de pâtes. — He has never eaten pasta.

• Tu as perdu tes clés. – You have lost your keys.

[Jenga218]

Originally posted by olimo

You may have noticed that past participles used with "être" have to agree with the subject.

For example:

Je suis parti - a man or a boy is speaking

Je suis partie - a woman or a girl is speaking

Nous sommes partis - some men or men and women are speaking

Nous sommes parties - some women are speaking

Unlike this, the participles used with "avoir" don't have to agree with the subject: Il a écrit une lettre, Nous avons écrit une lettre, etc.

But here comes a curious thing. If the direct object (like "une lettre" in the previous example) is substituted with a pronoun (la), it has to go before the past participle. And in that case, the participle has to agree with the direct object.

Examples:

J'ai écrit une lettre. Je l'ai écrite. ("Une lettre" is feminine → "la" (though contracted to "l' ") → écrite.)

J'ai vu mes parents. Je les ai vus. ("Les parents" is plural → les → vus.)

J'ai lavé les chaussettes. Je les ai lavées. ("Les chaussettes" is feminine plural → les → "e" for feminine and "s" for plural → lavees.)

Il m'a vue - I am a girl, so "me" (m') here refers to the feminine direct object, thus it is "vue", not "vu". Similar: Il nous a vus - vus for masculine or mixed plural, vues for feminine plural.

Here is an example from a Duolingo lesson: Cette femme, je l'ai connue pendant deux ans. ("Connue" for "la" for "femme".)

This is not only with pronouns, but with nouns as well.

La viande qu'il a cuisinée est dans le four. - "La viande" is feminine and comes before the participle, thus it is "cuisinée".

To put it short:

The past participle used with "être" has to agree with the subject.

The past participle used with "avoir" and coming after the direct object has to agree with the direct object.

---

@Olimo: your example

"Il m'a donnée un livre - I am a girl, so "me" (m') here refers to the feminine direct object, thus it is "donnée", not "donné".
Similar: Il nous a donnés un livre - donnés for masculine or mixed plural, données for feminine plural."

is wrong, unfortunately.

Correct forms are : "Il m'a donné un livre" (livre is the object and placed after the verb) - m' stands for "à moi" (indirect object - not to agree witih the verb). Same applies to : "il nous a donné un livre". I know, this is a nightmare for French people as well...

@Sitesurf: thanks a lot! This is not a nightmare, I understand your point clearly. Please have a look again, I've replaced this example with another with "voir". Is it ok?

@Olimo: perfect!

---

Just to add one more subtlety: in some cases, the "verbes pronominaux" (called "reflexive verbs" in English I believe) -- which always form their "passé composé" with être -- have not the agreement of the "participe passé"...
See (in French): http://www.etudes-litteraires.com/verbe ... -passe.php

Well just for you to know, but don't worry French people have already difficulties with the avoir-rule so with this one, we do even more mistakes...

---

I saw your complaint about how Pronouns 2 was an "incredibly hard unit" and indeed it did require a bit of wrestling with that one. But I made it. Interesting how you said that Compound Past was easier by comparison. I really seem to have hit the wall on that one! Try as I might, but I keep on making early mistakes, then cancelling the lessons, then retrying then, then making more early mistakes, then cancelling. Rinse, repeat. No progress. My policy: I have to get at least seven answers out of 20 correct initially in order to even proceed. Otherwise, I know shit's gonna hit the fan and failure is imminent. It's like there are rules for forming the compound past that I'm not at all familiar with and it may require me weeks, rather than hours of hard work to even learn them by rote. Which is pretty ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ discouraging now that I think of it. I'd like to hope that after a certain point, everything will come easier. But I guess this is the worst of the uphill struggles. Or maybe I'm just different (read: much less talent for foreign languages than anyone who becomes a polyglot without too much strain, or perhaps not having the necessary parts in the brain developed that a language learner needs the most).

Compound Past was easier for me because I had learned the principles of it before starting this skill on Duolingo. What rules are you having troubles with? Do you use any external grammar resources?

I hate to discourage you, but there are still very hard units in store... Subjunctive was a real nightmare.

Well, for one, I can't figure out the use of s'est or se sont (insert verb here). I can't recall it for now, but I think one of the sentences included s'est-il (insert a verb here). And in a more general sense I also have to admit: articles are a bitch! Even in English I sometimes ❤❤❤❤ it up with the articles and in French it's worse. Peut-etre il faut utiliser les exterieurs resources de la grammaire.

"S'est" and "se sont" appear with reflexive verbs. Let's take the verb "se coucher" (to go to bed). Watch the present and the past compound tenses:

• je me couche - je me suis couché(e)

• tu te couches - tu t'es couché(e)

• il se couche - il s'est couché

• elle se couche - elle s'est couchée

• on se couche - on s'est couché

• nous nous couchons - nous nous sommes couché(e)s

• vous vous couchez - vous vous êtes couché(e)(s)

• ils se couchent - ils se sont couchés

• elles se couchent - elles se sont couchées

As you can see, "s'est" is used with 3rd person singular and "se sont" with 3rd person plural.

See also:

• http://www.laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/vpr1.html

• http://www.laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/tap4.html

I find the entire resource http://www.laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/index.html very helpful.

Thanks. It does look like reflexive verbs are very common in Romance languages. I have no idea how have some of these languages evolved to have so many hard rules, but it makes sense that part of the problem is struggling with the unfamiliar territory.

Another problem: I have a hard time making out the heard words precisely. I'm constantly using the slower audio and even then I can miss the exact words. How can I even hope to understand spoken French if at this stage, everything sounds like a high-speed sputter to my ears?

In fact, it is English that evolved to less rules concerning conjugations, cases and articles

Your other problem is only solved by practice. You may also want to add some podcasts in French to your learning, they are a great help to boost your listening comprehension. I recommend http://learnfrenchbypodcast.com/ (more fluent) or http://coffeebreakfrench.com/ (more slow).

Just did lessons three and four of this unit. Gad, they're much easier, it was mostly lesson two that gave me trouble. And part of the problem was about all these crazy reflexive verbs. So, if I got an English sentence, how do I recognise it calls for a French reflexive verb?

See my first link: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/vpr1.html. There are some explanations on reflexive verbs. And of course you have just to learn the words sometimes.

---

thanks very much for the note. but i found a sentence in duolingo "les choses que nous avons pensees et faites" why here we have to agree with the subject in "avoir" type?

The rule is respected.
les choses (feminine plural) is the D.O. of the verbs avons pensé(e)(s) and avons fait(e)(s). Since it's placed before the verb, the past participle agrees with this feminine plural D.O.
=> pensées, faites.

thanks, in the past, i just thought the rule only with the pronouns, actually also for the nouns.

Yes, it's for "any kind" of D.O.. For example, here, in fact the (gramatical) D.O. is que, but it goes for les choses which is feminine plural.

---

I'm confused with "Le mari et sa femme se sont telephoné."...why doesn't rule for 3

The reason is that he French verb "téléphoner" is constructed with an indirect object after the preposition "à".

• To call someone = Appeler quelqu'un but Téléphoner à quelqu'un.

In other words, the reflexive pronoun "se" is not a direct object but an indirect object and in this case, the past participle does not agree with the reflexive pronoun.

Please compare:

• Ils se sont appelés: "se" is a direct object, so "appelés" agrees with the masculine plural "se".

• Ils se sont téléphoné: "se" is an indirect object, so "appelé does not agree.

---

I've been getting incorrect from duolingo because it wants past participle to agree even with avior as a helping verb. Next time I do one I'll give you an example. Also why does it say, qu'il nous a dite hier. Why isn't dite the regular past participle: dit? any help?

Either you have not read the whole thread, nor clicked on the links given above, or you have not fully understood the rules.

Once again for you, the rules of agreement for the past participle in French:

With the auxiliary "être", the PP agrees with the subject: Elle est partie.

With the auxiliary "avoir", the PP never agrees with the subject.

• the PP does not agree with a direct object placed after the verb: J'ai dit la phrase.

• the PP only agrees with a direct object placed before the verb: C'est la phrase que j'ai dite.

[Jenga218]

Originally posted by Remercier

All French verbs take 'avoir' to form the passé composé tense except for these seventeen verbs:

aller, arriver, descendre, devenir, entrer, monter, mourir, naître, partir, passer, rentrer, rester, retourner, revenir, sortir, tomber, and venir,

which take être instead of avoir.

All pronominal verbs (se lever, se coucher, se promener, etc.) also take être instead of avoir to form the passé composé tense.

Well done!

Just a few details about those of the 17 "être" verbs which also exist with "avoir" when transitive:

• Descendre: j'ai descendu l'escalier (I walked down the stairs)

• Descendre: il a descendu son ennemi (he shot down his enemy)

• Monter: j'ai monté l'escalier (I walked up the stairs)

• Monter: j'ai monté la mayonnaise (I wounded up the mayonnaise)

• Entrer: j'ai entré mon mot de passe (I entered my password)

• Passer: j'ai passé des heures à travailler (I spent hours working) + many, many other uses

• Retourner: j'ai retourné la crêpe (I turned the crêpe over)

• Sortir: j'ai sorti le chien ce matin (I took the dog out this morning)

• Tomber: j'ai tombé la veste (I took my jacket off)

what do you mean by " transitive"?

• transitive verb — A verb that can take a direct object. For instance, manger ("to eat").

viewtopic.php?t=35

j'ai monté la mayonnaise (I wounded up the mayonnaise) - What does this mean, in connection with mayonnaise? I only know "monter" transitive as "to carry up" . je monte la valise.

The meaning of "monter" is in "up". The meaning is "assemble" or "put together", as you would do with an Ikea cupboard.

---

When I learned these (20+ years ago...forgive my bad memory) we learned them in pairs since they are opposites (I think). Aller-venir, arriver-partir, naître-mourir, monter-descendre, etc.... It could help in memorizing and remembering.

That's the way I was taught them too. For what it's worth, I was taught to use the mnemonic ADVENT:

Arriver (opposite is partir)
Descendre (monter)
Venir (aller) [and this is the point to remember devenir, revenir]
Entrer (sortir) [and remember rentrer here]
Naître (mourir)
Tomber

That way there's only a few stragglers to remember off by heart. I may have remembered this all slightly wrong, but the fact I've remembered it at all ten plus years down the line suggests it might be of some value.

I haven't heard that before, that's interesting. I remember being taught "DR. & MRS. VANDERTRAMPP."

We were taught TRAMPS DEMAND 3 Returns to Venice
Tomber Rester Aller Mourir Partir Sortir
Devenir Entrer Monter Arriver Naitre Descendre
(3 Returns) Retourner Rentrer Revenir
(Venice) Venir

---

There also seems to be a pattern about motion with these verbs. Most obviously: coming, going, leaving, descending, etc. (as well as all the verbs based on venir). Rester has to do with stopping motion, so it sort of fits. The only ones which don't seem to fit this pattern (I think) are mourir and naître. But think of these as entering and leaving life, and they still fit.

Smart comment!

---

In school we are taught Mr Mrs Vandertramp ses verbes indiquent que tu subis l'action once you know this you should not have to memoreis

---

New learners--the être verbs can be remembered by an anagram, "DR. MRS. VANDERTRAMPP"

Descendre Rentrer

Montrer Retourner Sortir

Venir Aller Naître Devenir Entrer Revenir Tomber Rester Arriver Mourir Partir Passer

In addition, in high school, we wrote & drew on a picture of a house and thought of all of these verbs as things you do with the house--go up the stairs, go downstairs, leave it, come back to it, etc. We would be "born" into the ceiling above it and "died" in the soil. Weird, but it worked.

---

lol I,m french and I didn't eaven know about that (all those attributive verbs), but it seam natural for me so... but some verb can bot be with ''avoir et être''!

I learn somethin in my own mother tongue, thanx!!