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[ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

User avatar
justheaven

[ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by justheaven »

Original Post by: MABBY: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/4472318 | Archived original page: https://archive.ph/Nn7e9


Image MABBY:

So, at the very least, you’re going to have to remember Direct and Indirect pronouns, and know what a preposition is. Yes, you will have to memorize things.
I could not find a single useful chart anywhere on the Internet. Spanish? Loads of them. Italian? Nope.
So I made one:


Image


You’ll immediately notice that some words are on both parts of the table for the same object/ subject for both direct and indirect; specifically “mi”, “ti”, “ci” and “vi”.


That’s good news, isn’t it? You only really have to worry about “him”, “her”, “it”, and “them”, now.


The only difference between direct and indirect, in an Italian sentence, is a preposition. The two most common prepositions in Italian are “a” and “di”. (EDIT:) But there are others, such as \"su\", \"per\", \"con\", \"da\", ...etc. A preposition is a \"linking\" word that \"shows the relationship between a noun or pronoun and other words in a sentence.\" In English, \"to\", \"of\", \"on\", \"by\", \"with\", \"from\", ...and so on. (end EDIT)


So the lazy man memorizes that the presence of the English words to OR for are a giveaway for “indirect”, keeping in mind that it doesn’t work for verb infinitives— mangiare is the verb “to eat”, but there are no pronouns involved there, so there’s never any “direct” or “indirect” verbs. Only with objects and people. (We’re not even going to start discussing “Piacere” here, so forget that!)


So looking at a few lines of the table, you’ll see that:

  • mi means me (direct), but both mi and a me mean either to me , or for me (indirect).

  • lo means him (direct), but gli means either to him , or for him (indirect) , or even to/ for them (indirect).

and so on.

Thus; if you give something to someone, or make something for someone, then you need to look on that table for the indirect object pronoun. Again, the presence of “to” or “for” is your quick magic reminder for indirect objects but, indeed, any preposition should raise the same flag.


You probably already know this, now, but the “clitic” pronoun form is placed in front of the verb form. The verb form tells you who the person performing the action (a verb) is.


It is easy to practice in English. You would never say “To him I see”, so in Italian you would never say “Gli vedo”, because “Gli” is “To him”. Not just plain “him”; “To him”.
Meanwhile, you’d never say “I give a book her”. You’d say “I give a book to her”, so “to her” is le , not la and you’d obviously use “Le dò un libro”.
Where it sometimes gets tricky is when the preposition is only implied in English. “I read him a book” or “I ask her a question” needs to be considered in Italian as “I read (to) him a book” and “I ask (of her) a question”.


Here are some basic examples to help (and hopefully not confuse) you:

  • ama He loves or She loves (or even It loves ); Ci ama he/ she/ it loves us.

  • scrivo I write ; Lo scrivo I write it. Note that it wouldn’t be, “I write him” or “her”. Meanwhile...

  • gli scrivo; gli is “to him”, so then I write to him.

  • Le is “to her”, so then le scrivo I write to her. Unfortunately, le is also feminine “them” on the direct pronoun side, so if the subjects being written are all of feminine gender, Le scrivo could also mean “I write them”.

  • What about a double pronoun sentence? “I read it to him”? That’s easy: Lo leggo a lui

  • I see you Ti vedo (there is no “to” or “for”, so use the table for direct object pronoun).

  • I play for him Gli suono (it can’t be direct, Lo suono, because of the word “for”). You can say the very same thing by using the “stressed form”, but after the verb: Suono a lui.

  • Lo suono is “I play it” (it being a direct object, masculine, such as “un flauto”. Use La suono for “I play it”, it being a direct feminine object, such as “una chitarra”).

The Stressed pronouns do not get placed before the verb; they come after it.

Many of them can also be placed into the verb.

  • Posso farlo (I can do it), comes by dropping the \"e\" from Fare (to do) and adding the pronoun \"lo\". Do that with most any verb infinitive.

Finally, when used in a negative sentence, the pronoun always goes between non and the verb: Non lo vedo = \"I don't see him\", or \"I don't see it\".

That should get you well on the way, and at least 3/4 the way through the Clitics lessons.
I’ll leave it to others to explain “Ce” and “Ne”.

By the way, you can quickly spot a Reflexive Sentence if the subject and the pronoun being used are on the same line of the table above, or if the word “si” is present before a verb. (And not sì, meaning “yes”...).

  • Mi lavo; I wash myself (same line for io (lavo) and Mi makes this sentence reflexive).

  • Ti vedi; You see yourself (Tu vedi and Ti on the same line).

  • Ci chiediamo; We ask ourselves (Noi chiediamo/ Ci on the same line).

The word “si” goes in place of him/ her/ it and also them, so there is no Gli/ Lo/ La/ Le/ Li to worry about in reflexive:

  • Si lava; He washes himself, or She washes herself, (or even) It washes itself.

  • Si lavano; They wash themselves. It is obviously not “They wash himself”. “They wash him”, on the other hand, is not reflexive, does not use “si”, and is simply “Lo lavano -- as per the rules on direct pronouns, in the initial section of this essay.

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User avatar
Meli578588
Italy

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by Meli578588 »

This is a very helpful post , I’m sure to many.

Thank you. I have saved the page. :)

I don’t mind deleting my comment , if you want the page left alone with just the “help.”

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by gmads »

I would like to add a couple of important related points to help people avoid getting confused.

1) While verbs are usually classified as being transitive or intransitive, or both, I'd say it is more useful, and less prone to error, to understand them as being used transitively or intransitively.

Remember that transitive verbs may use a direct object, for example, to read something, while intransitive verbs do not, for example, to sneeze something.

Both transitive and intransitive verbs may, or may not, require or accept an indirect object, for example:

  • to lay something to someone on a surface:
    -- she laid the clothes on her bed
  • to write [something] [to someone]:
    -- she used to write beautifully
    -- he wrote a book
    -- she always was writing to her boyfriend
    -- he wrote a poem to his mother
  • to lie something [to someone]:
    -- the boy repeatedly lied
    -- the boy lied to his parents
  • to lie something to someone on something:
    -- I like to lie on the beach

2) Verbs that are used transitively or intransitively in one language, may or may not be used that way in another language, therefore, one needs to memorize how each verb is used in the target language, or to look them up in a dictionary.

The Italian verb telefonare (to phone), for example, is mostly used in an intransitive way: telefonare a qualcuno, while in English it is mostly used in a transitive way: to call someone. One should note that only in colloquial language "telefonare" may be used as a transitive verb with the meaning of "communicating something to someone by phone": Cos’è che mi volevi telefonare? (lit. what did you want to telephone me?).

A similar situation can be seen with the Italian verb rispondere (to answer): rispondi alla domanda (answer the question).

As I initially mentioned, verbs are not inherently transitive or intransitive, instead, they are used that way depending on whether they take or not a direct or an indirect object:

-- I answered correctly (intr.) = ho risposto correttamente
-- I answered the question (tr.) = ho risposto alla domanda
-- I answer only to myself (pv) = rispondo solo a me stesso

Once one starts to understand about verb transitivity, and direct and indirect objects, using direct and indirect object pronouns becomes easier.


:hash:  ㆍitaliano ㆍgrammatica

Last edited by gmads on Mon May 01, 2023 4:17 am, edited 4 times in total.

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by gmads »

justheaven wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:58 am

So I made one:

![](https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2233606.jpg)

[...] But there are others, such as \"su\", \"per\", \"con\", \"da\", ...etc. A preposition is a \"linking\" word that \"shows the relationship between a noun or pronoun and other words in a sentence.\" In English, \"to\", \"of\", \"on\", \"by\", \"with\", \"from\", ...and so on. (end EDIT)

I'd say some parts of the post need to be fixed (the missing image) and cleaned up (removing the inverse diagonals).

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
Meli578588
Italy

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by Meli578588 »

Grazie ! Ciao. Amo questo . Sempre bello fare un corso di aggiornamento ….[mention]gmads[/mention]

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by gmads »

Meli578588 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:17 pm

Grazie ! Ciao. Amo questo . Sempre bello fare un corso di aggiornamento ….@gmads

Prego! Sempre un piacere per me! Sì, perché allora si possono apprendere nuovi concetti sulla propria lingua... e anche per aiutare coloro che stanno studiando e imparando :)

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
Meli578588
Italy

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by Meli578588 »

.

Last edited by Meli578588 on Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: [ARCHIVED] The "Lazy man’s guide to Clitics" !!

Post by gmads »

By the way... in Italian:

  • a direct object (complemento oggetto) is introduced without a preposition: chiamo mia ragazza ogni sera
  • an indirect object (complemento di termine) is introduced by the preposition "a:" telefono a mio padre
  • other complements (altri complementi indiretti) are introduced by other prepositions: sono andato con lei; mio figlio torna da scuola; mi sono dimenticato di lui; lavoro per un'azienda

:hash:  ㆍitaliano ㆍgrammatica

🦎  Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.  🦎
Antinomy - Imagination

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