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и and і

Moderator: HeyMarlana

Olav
Norway

и and і

Post by Olav »

Is there a rule about when to use "и" and when to use "і"?

DmGabin

Re: и and і

Post by DmGabin »

What do you mean under rules? The Ukrainian spelling is mostly phonetic. You simply write a letter that corresponds to a sound that you hear. That's the rule. So, when you hear [и], you write и, when you hear [і], you write і. Can you hear the difference between the sounds?

Olav
Norway

Re: и and і

Post by Olav »

So there is no rule. Thank you!

Żar
Poland

Re: и and і

Post by Żar »

There are at least one rule: и doesn’t occur word initially. Other than that:

и (y) corresponds to и/ы (i/y) in other Slavic languages (Ukrainian малина, Russian малина, Polish/Czech/Croatian malina; Ukrainian син, Russian сын, Polish syn, Czech syn, Croatian sin).

і (i) usually corresponds to Russian е, Polish je/ja, Czech ě/í, Croatian (i)je (Ukrainian вік, Russian век, Polish wiek, Czech věk, Croatian vijek; Ukrainian віра, Russian вера, Polish wiara, Czech víra, Croatian vjera);
or else to o/ó/ů in closed syllables (Ukrainian дім, Russian дом, Polish dom, Czech dům; Ukrainian мій, Russian мой, Polish mój, Czech můj).

As for non-Slavic loan words like психолог, музика, магазин, оптиміст, стиль, композитор, фабрика, циліндр - many of them were borrowed through Polish, so they tend to follow Polish rules. Polish traditionally doesn’t allow some combinations like /ti di ʦi si zi ri/, so you tend to get y (Ukrainian и) after these consonants even in Latin loan words.

DmGabin

Re: и and і

Post by DmGabin »

и doesn’t occur word initially

It does, actually, in «ирій» (a variant of «вирій»), as well as in some proper names of non-Slavic origin.

User avatar
Enzfj2
Ukraine

Re: и and і

Post by Enzfj2 »

The official Ukrainian spelling (2019) says about loan words:

ІІІ. ПРАВОПИС СЛІВ ІНШОМОВНОГО ПОХОДЖЕННЯ
...
§ 129. Голосний [і]

...
I. І пишемо:

  1. На початку слова: іде́я, інстру́кція, інтернаціона́льний; І́бсен, І́ден, Ізабе́лла, Іліа́да, І́ндія, І́тон.
  2. Після приголосного перед голосним та буквами є, ї, й: артеріа́льний, геніа́льний, діа́лектика, індустріаліза́ція, матеріа́л, діа́гноз, чіаба́та, ціані́д, соціалі́зм, фіа́лка; аудіє́нція, гіє́на, ріє́лтор, кліє́нт, пієте́т, тампліє́р; копії́ст, аксіо́ма, раціо́н, революціоне́р, соціоло́гія, фіоле́товий; ра́діус, тріу́мф; парті́йний, ра́дій; Біарри́ц, Фіу́ме; Віардо́, Ігле́сіас, Марціа́л, Ліє́па, Оссіа́н, Сіа́м, Шантії́.
    У кінці слова іншомовне -іa передаємо звичайно через -ія: арте́рія, мате́рія, інду́стрія, Іта́лія, Гарсі́я, Га́ллія.
  3. В іменах і прізвищах після приголосного перед наступним приголосним і в кінці слова: Беатріче, Ові́дій, Річард, Дідро́, Ді́зель, Грі́мм, Ме́дічі, Россі́ні, Анрі́;
    ...

III. И пишемо:

1. У загальних назвах після приголосних д, т, з (дз), с, ц, ж (дж), ч, ш, р перед наступним приголосним (крім й): ди́зель, дина́мо, дипло́м, дире́ктор, мето́дика; інститу́т, матема́тика, сти́мул, тип; пози́ція, фізи́чний; такси́ст, родзи́нка, силуе́т, систе́ма; цисте́рна, ци́фра; режи́м, джигі́т, джинси, джип; чичеро́не; ши́рма, шифр; брига́да, риф, фа́брика.
...

however there are numerous exceptions to the rule, mostly due to Russian, not Polish influence (sigh).

vasjugan
Germany

Re: и and і

Post by vasjugan »

Olav wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 4:59 pm

So there is no rule. Thank you!

Your question suggests that you are not aware that і and и represent different sounds. Is this the case?

Olav
Norway

Re: и and і

Post by Olav »

vasjugan wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:11 pm
Olav wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 4:59 pm

So there is no rule. Thank you!

Your question suggests that you are not aware that і and и represent different sounds. Is this the case?

Correct.

vasjugan
Germany

Re: и and і

Post by vasjugan »

Olav wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 4:59 pm

So there is no rule. Thank you!

There are rules, but those rules make best sense to someone who has studied Slavic comparative morphology. There is no simple rule. First, of course, these are different sounds. "і" is the "normal" "i" as in Italian, Spanish, Polish or all other languages whose orthography is not an unholy mess like the English is. (in English, I guess "ee" would come closest).
"и" is a "darker" sound, pronounced like Polish "y" or somewhat similar to Turkish dotless "ı" or orkish ("russian") "ы".

The confusing fact is that in Ukrainian, Proto-Slavic "i" has "darkened" to "y", that is, proto-Slavic ы and и have merged into "и" which however is pronounced like Belarusian or orkish "ы" and therefore transliterated not "i" as from other Cyrillic based Slavic languages but "y". Ukrainian does not have the letter "ы" (transliterated from Belarusian or orkish as "y"). "и" ("y") thus appears in most cases where medieval East Slavic had "и" or "ы". (The exception is the beginning of words, where "и" is never used.)

"і" often appears were proto Slavic used the vowel represented by the letter ѣ (yat'), see the Wikipedia article on yat' to see how it has changed in various Slavic languages. Besides that, where o switches to і or ї due to Ukrainian itacism, you have the "i".

у Львові -> Львів
слово -> слів

So, if you are into Slavic studies and if you know other Slavic languages, especially Polish, Belarusian or orkish/muscovite (formerly known as "russian"), this all makes a lot of sense. Else, I don' think these rules help you a lot.

Last edited by vasjugan on Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:21 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Steve579062

Re: и and і

Post by Steve579062 »

I'm using language to keep my old brain working.

User avatar
Enzfj2
Ukraine

Re: и and і

Post by Enzfj2 »

Compare English beet and bit, seat and sit: IPA symbols for the vowels are [ i] and [ɪ], both are close to Ukrainian /і/ and /и/, the second one, despite the graphic similarity, far from Turkish dotless /ı/ (IPA symbol [ɯ]/ and even farther from /ы/ (IPA [ɨ]).
Beware, "Ukrainian phonology" article in Wikipedia is at least dubious, e.g. it shows everywhere [w] for /в/, even for він / вона — [win]/[wɔˈna], which is utterly wrong.

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