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[Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

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McGonnagle
Japan

[Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

I found that "coconut" in Latin is "Cocos Nucifera", and now I'm wondering that how to say "coconut sugar" in Latin.
Any idea how "Cocos" declines? "cocos -tis", like "mons -tis"?

Here are my ideas for the translation.
Saccharum de Cocote Nucifera
Saccharum ex Cocote Nucifera
Saccharum Cocotis Nuciferae

Any idea?

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

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MatOzone
Catalonia

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by MatOzone »

mmm... I bet for "Cocotes Saccharum" or "Cocotes Saccharo"

Based on catalan/spanish/etc, it may be "Cocoes Saccharo".

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angsthasen
Canada

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by angsthasen »

Usually, I favour looking to the botanical name for new-world plants in Latin, but I'm not sure it's the best choice this time.
cocōs in Latin is apparently the accusative plural of cocus, an alternative form of coquus ("cook"). I submit that most of the sugar available belongs to the cook.

Etymologically, the Spanish usage of 'coco' as 'grinning face' is modified by the species name 'nucifera', 'bearing, producing or containing nuts'. I'm not convinced by the argument that 'cocos' alone will carry the desired meaning in Latin.

Caroli Linnaei Species plantarum, exhibentes plantas rite cognitas, ad genera relatas, cum differentiis specificis, nominibus trivialibus, synonymis selectis, locis natalibus, secundum systema sexuale digestas does say Image
but earlier sources just mark it nux indica, and https://neolatinlexicon.org/silva-old/ suggests,

coconut / nux Indica magna [Latham]; nux cocoîna* [Vox Lat.]; cocus* [Martyr]; nux cocus [s.18] | coconut milk latex ex nuce coco [s.18] (Helf.) ]] nux coci (LRL) ]] nux palmae Indicae (Lev.)

and at https://neolatinlexicon.org/adumbratio-old/

342 coconut ► nux Indica ¶ MLBS. 1315 MARCO POLO B 3, 16, of Sumatra: "In hac regione sunt nuces Indicae in copiâ maximâ, quae magnae sunt et optimae." 1571 MATTIOLI 151. 1540 VIVES Exer. 354: "nux praegrandis Indica." Holberg. Cosmas Indicopleustes 11, 11 (in PG 88, 443): " Το δ' άλλο των αργελλίων εστι των λεγομένων, τουτ' έστι των μεγάλων καρύωντων ινδικων"; in the accompanying Latin version (presumably by Bernard de Montfaucon, the editor) in Patrologia Graeca 88, 443: "Arbor alia argelliorum, ut vocant, hoc est nucum grandium Indicarum, ferax est." (Cosmas' ensuing explanation describes quite precisely the coconut; for the identification of κάρυα ινδική as coconut, see annotation in Sources chrétiennes edition, p. 334). See also Stephanus: "ARGELLION, Juglans Indica major, ap. Cosmam, Topogr. Chr. p. 336." ► nux Indiae ¶ MLBS. c.1300 MARCO POLO A 323, of Persian ships: "Sunt confectae ... cum filo qui fit de cortice nucum Indiae." 1315 MARCO POLO B 3, 20. ► cocus, i* m. ¶ EGGER D.L. 40. HELFER. Cf. Linné: "cocos," as genus name of the coconut palm.

Coconut sugar, of course, comes from the sap or blossom of the coconut palm, not from the nut itself, which doesn't necessarily make things easier.

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

MatOzone wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:04 pm

mmm... I bet for "Cocotes Saccharum" or "Cocotes Saccharo"

Based on catalan/spanish/etc, it may be "Cocoes Saccharo".

Salve! Gratias for your response!


I wonder if we need something for connecting those two nominative nouns together as well as "de", "ex", or gen. sing. /plur. form of cocos, or adjective form of cocos (I don't know what it would be though) just like acernus (adjective of acer).

Here are my new ideas for coconut sugar:
Saccharum de cocotibus
Saccharum de cocoibus
Saccharum ex cocotibus
Saccharum ex cocoibus
Saccharum cocotium
Saccharum cocoum
Saccharum cocotis
Saccharum cocois


Any idea?

[edit]
I see some "Cocoes saccharo" like your suggestion, and also "Cocoes oleum" as coconut oil online but non of my ideas. Can you kindly tell me why "cocoes"? Isn't "cocoes" nominative plural? or it works as adjective? Thank you!!

Last edited by McGonnagle on Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:01 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:09 am

Usually, I favour looking to the botanical name for new-world plants in Latin, but I'm not sure it's the best choice this time.
cocōs in Latin is apparently the accusative plural of cocus, an alternative form of coquus ("cook"). I submit that most of the sugar available belongs to the cook.

Etymologically, the Spanish usage of 'coco' as 'grinning face' is modified by the species name 'nucifera', 'bearing, producing or containing nuts'. I'm not convinced by the argument that 'cocos' alone will carry the desired meaning in Latin.

Caroli Linnaei Species plantarum, exhibentes plantas rite cognitas, ad genera relatas, cum differentiis specificis, nominibus trivialibus, synonymis selectis, locis natalibus, secundum systema sexuale digestas does say Image
but earlier sources just mark it nux indica, and https://neolatinlexicon.org/silva-old/ suggests,

coconut / nux Indica magna [Latham]; nux cocoîna* [Vox Lat.]; cocus* [Martyr]; nux cocus [s.18] | coconut milk latex ex nuce coco [s.18] (Helf.) ]] nux coci (LRL) ]] nux palmae Indicae (Lev.)

and at https://neolatinlexicon.org/adumbratio-old/

342 coconut ► nux Indica ¶ MLBS. 1315 MARCO POLO B 3, 16, of Sumatra: "In hac regione sunt nuces Indicae in copiâ maximâ, quae magnae sunt et optimae." 1571 MATTIOLI 151. 1540 VIVES Exer. 354: "nux praegrandis Indica." Holberg. Cosmas Indicopleustes 11, 11 (in PG 88, 443): " Το δ' άλλο των αργελλίων εστι των λεγομένων, τουτ' έστι των μεγάλων καρύωντων ινδικων"; in the accompanying Latin version (presumably by Bernard de Montfaucon, the editor) in Patrologia Graeca 88, 443: "Arbor alia argelliorum, ut vocant, hoc est nucum grandium Indicarum, ferax est." (Cosmas' ensuing explanation describes quite precisely the coconut; for the identification of κάρυα ινδική as coconut, see annotation in Sources chrétiennes edition, p. 334). See also Stephanus: "ARGELLION, Juglans Indica major, ap. Cosmam, Topogr. Chr. p. 336." ► nux Indiae ¶ MLBS. c.1300 MARCO POLO A 323, of Persian ships: "Sunt confectae ... cum filo qui fit de cortice nucum Indiae." 1315 MARCO POLO B 3, 20. ► cocus, i* m. ¶ EGGER D.L. 40. HELFER. Cf. Linné: "cocos," as genus name of the coconut palm.

Coconut sugar, of course, comes from the sap or blossom of the coconut palm, not from the nut itself, which doesn't necessarily make things easier.

Salve! Gratias for your response and a lots of references.
I guess we are all a bit random about naming food in general aren't we? Coconuts are not really nuts, Coffee beans are not really beans, Kombucha in western countries is nothing to do with Kombu, French toast is not really a French thing... I hope there is a list of foods certified by Roman Church or Latin language association, or if they can show a basic rule of how to compose new Latin word from some other Romanic languages.

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by angsthasen »

Other people I've asked have suggested,

saccharum ex nuce cocō [familiāris]
(vel)
saccharum ex nuce praegrandī Indicā [pūblicus]

which seems to follow the coconut milk model from the lexicon.

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

angsthasen wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:42 pm

Other people I've asked have suggested,

saccharum ex nuce cocō [familiāris]
(vel)
saccharum ex nuce praegrandī Indicā [pūblicus]

which seems to follow the coconut milk model from the lexicon.

Thank you so much for the kind favor!
I also think using "ex" probably more legitimate than "de" since coconut sugar is extracted from coconut.

But I found that we are very random about naming foods ultimately...???


butyrum ex arachidibus (peanut butter)
---from a book "Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, by John C. Traupman"

I don't understand why "ex" here but not "de" or genitive form of arachis, since peanut butter is not extracted from peanut but just a paste of peanut.

oleum palmārum (palm oil)
--- from Nuntii Latini (Finnish National Broadcast in Latin): https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2013/05/24/nuntii-latini

I understand that palmārum is a genitive plural case of "palma". But if we follow this model, coconut sugar would be Saccharum + genitive plural case of coconuts (whatever that is cocos or other word), so there won't be "ex". It would be Saccharum Cocoum or Saccharum Cocotium or Sacccharum + genitive form of other name.

I wish I can find a way of general rules of composing word for food. or I will never know how to call, for examples, apple vinegar, avocado oil, cocoa butter, etc. Or maybe there is no strict rule, whatever of those can work?!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

angsthasen
Canada

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by angsthasen »

Even in English, we will see alternate naming.
Are they green onions, scallions, or spring onions? It's it spun sugar, cotton candy, or fairy floss? Past a certain point, it's probably legitimate to lean on, "You'll figure out what I mean."

angsthasen
Canada

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by angsthasen »

Carla Hurt of Found in Antiquity, who cautions that she is not really an expert on historical linguistics and her opinion should thus be taken with a grain of salt, adds:

I think the genus name cocos is a weird nominative formed from Portuguese "coco" with an -s attached (maybe a third declension, but what would the stem be?), and the feminine nucifera is probably agreeing with it in feminine because "nux" is feminine and the idea follows that a nut called "cocos" should be feminine too (Kinda like how trees like ulmus and cypressus are feminine despite their declension because arbor is feminine) but yeah, cocos is whole heap less easy to use in a Latin sentence than nux Indica

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

[quote=angsthasen post_id=14180 time=1650969049 user_id=866]
Carla Hurt of [url=https://foundinantiquity.com/about/]Found in Antiquity[/url], who cautions that she is not really an expert on historical linguistics and her opinion should thus be taken with a grain of salt, adds:
[quote]I think the genus name cocos is a weird nominative formed from Portuguese "coco" with an -s attached (maybe a third declension, but what would the stem be?), and the feminine nucifera is probably agreeing with it in feminine because "nux" is feminine and the idea follows that a nut called "cocos" should be feminine too (Kinda like how trees like ulmus and cypressus are feminine despite their declension because arbor is feminine) but yeah, cocos is whole heap less easy to use in a Latin sentence than nux Indica[/quote]
[/quote]

Thanks for your response (it really helped me to think through!) and sorry for this late reply, I had been busy lately. (and sorry for this hasty bad English writing!)

It looks like the name "cocos nucifera" is a set scientific Latin name by "International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants" (ICN), so I would use this name for now until I found regular common Latin name for coconut.

I also reviewed some ingredients of some products written in Neo Latin, I realized that they don't really use preposition as "ex" or "de", instead, it looks like they tend to use genitives forms for a descliption.


ex.
oleum rosae (rose oil)
oleum arganiae (argan oil)
Oleum Perseae Americanae (avocado oil)

Speaking of stem of "cocos", I'm still not sure yet. There are three possibities I can think of;


  1. cocos-is (like "urbs-is")
  2. cocos-cocotis (like "mons-montis")
  3. cocos-cocodis (like "pes-pedis")

No.1 and No.2 show up in Wiktionary page; https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocos_nucifera ("cocos-cocois" in the article, "cocos-cocotis" in the photo description, probably those are written by different people.) but not No.3.

Following these forms, Latin translation of "coconut oil" would be;

oleum cocois (nuciferae)


or


oleum cocotis (nuciferae)

So, Coconut sugar in Latin may be "saccharum cocois (nuciferae)" or "saccharum cocotis (nuciferae)".


Although, this is just a scientific name. If ancient romans had encounterd "coconut", I cannot imagine they had named coconut like "cocos nucifera". According to Wiktionary, "Olea" (olive oil) is from ἐλαία (elaía, “olive berry, olive tree” in ancient Greek),
"garum" is γάρον (gáron, “the fish whose intestines were originally used in the condiment's production”). So if they ever had a chance to encouter coconut (they might have known about it (??), since it looks like Egyptian Nubiaian did coconut oil trading around 350-600 AD ??) they might have named it after Greek origin name. According to a dictionary, modern Greek name for coconut is "Κοκοφοίνικας" (cocofoinicas) --- "foinicas" is palm tree). "Palm tree or Palm family" in Latin is "arcaceae", so it could have been "cocos arcaceae"?? ...just guessing ;) Maybe "cocos" is just fine...

[edit] Later I found that "arcaceae" is also a scientific name. It looks like "palm" in Latin is "palma" and there is also a word "palmarius" (of or pertaining to palm trees) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/palmarius#Latin
so coconut could be "cocos palmaria" or "cocos palmae" in regular use, so coconut sugar can be "saccharum- cocois/ cocotis- palmariae/palmae" ....just guessing!!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: [Help!] How to say "coconut sugar" in Latin?

Post by McGonnagle »

I suddenly had a brainstorm that 'cocos' might decline as Greek style as 'Lesbos' does that would be;


cocos (f.)
nom: cocos
acc: cocon
gen: coci
dat: coco
abl: coco
(voc: coce)


Then later I encountered this discussion page about genitive form of 'Cocos'; https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputati ... s_nucifera
(written in Latin)

In this discussion, basically there four ideas for genitive form of 'cocos';

coci (2nd decl. Greek style)
cocotis (3rd decl. like 'mons')
cocoi ( not sure, 2nd decl. maybe? from 'cocuus'?)
cocois (3rd decl. like 'urbs')


I'm so happy to see that there are bunch of people also discussing about this out there!

Inceptor linguae Latinae sum. Latine scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar.
(I'm Latin beginner. I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction.)

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