Ranking

[duome]

We can now have all sorts of tags and special ranks displayed next to our avatars and this can also be used to build a crown-like ranking system (a lot of people seem to miss the crowns so we can do something similar here - it won't be a game changer, but it might be fun at the very least); it took around six hours to figure out how to do it properly, but now we have it, and with the availability of tags and special ranks we would actually be pleased to finally be able to express our gratitude and acknowledge your contributions to the community (so I spent those hours with something better in mind, not just that "banned" tag).

[antonmo]

Let’s discuss the crowns Are they all made from pure gold? Can you get one per each language? Who’s gonna have most crowns?

[duome]

Seriously - speaking of phpBB - normal ranks depend on the number of posts, so you advance to the next level automatically, while special ranks are special - you only need a good reason. Nominate someone in the end of the year in any number of categories, make a poll, celebrate your winners ... or don't (like Lily says).

[McGonnagle]

To reiterate, we can now have all sorts of tags and special ranks displayed under our avatars and this can also be used to build a crown-like ranking system (a lot of people seem to miss the crowns so we can do something similar here - it won't be a game changer, but it might be fun at the very least); it took around six hours to figure out how to do it properly, but now we have it, and with the availability of tags and special ranks we would actually be pleased to finally be able to express our gratitude and acknowledge your contributions to the community (so I spent those hours with something better in mind, not just that "banned" tag).

Thanks for your time. But to be honest, I feel that it might be better to avoid this kind of ranking system.
I'm a bit concerned that it could lead some people to become addicted to the sense of micro-power it gives them.

[McGonnagle]

Let’s discuss the crowns Are they all made from pure gold? Can you get one per each language? Who’s gonna have most crowns?

Haha, no, they’re not made from pure gold, I don't think. I guess they’re more like “Merit and honor badges” in the country somewhere in Northern Asia. — you know, those symbolic rewards for being a highly contributing citizen.

For me, the moment of contributing is the greatest joy, so I don’t really find much meaning in being awarded, but I guess some people do want that kind of recognition...???

[duome]

I guess some people do want that kind of recognition...???

We don't know.
phpBB counts posts.
Ranks are merely a quantization of the number of posts.
Duolingo's original quantization for XP levels was this:

Code: Select all

	1 => 0,
	2 => 60,
	3 => 120,
	4 => 200,
	5 => 300,
	6 => 450,
	7 => 750

Duome represents XP levels like this:

duome-duolingo-level-gauge.png (9.09 KiB) Viewed 475 times

Having some quantization for the number of posts and displaying it as a gauge, with or without the crown, might give you an idea of how many more posts it takes to get to the next "level", if you care about levels. Most people don't (or maybe they do - we just don't know), but if people post more thanks to this feature and it's something meaningful - why not?

[McGonnagle]

Ranks are merely a quantization of the number of posts.

I'm still not entirely sure about the ranking system, but I see your point.
That said, I can't help but wonder: What would happen to the community's value if the majority of posts were frequently generated by AI just for the sake of increasing post counts?

Also how about this? :

... while special ranks are special - you only need a good reason. Nominate someone in the end of the year in any number of categories, make a poll, celebrate your winners ... or don't (like Lily says).

[antonmo]

I guess some people do want that kind of recognition...???

but if people post more thanks to this feature and it's something meaningful - why not?

It would be terrible if people would start posting just to get crowns actually. You'd get even more AI, and spam like posts.

Maybe this is obvious for everyone else, but is this already implemented? Where can I see these crowns ?

[duome]

It would be terrible if

Yes

is this already implemented?

No

[antonmo]

@duone Would it be possible to relate them to thanks received instead ?

[duome]

The numbers are hidden behind the "stats" icon (currently inaccessible on mobile devices)

duome-forum-stats.png (10.66 KiB) Viewed 388 times

The task is almost identical - translating some number into some level, giving it a nice graphic.

The difference is that ranking based on posts is already automated (it's a default feature of phpBB - use it, ignore it, it's still there), while for ranking based on thanks I would have do some extra coding and, yet again, learn to do it properly (they have their own syntax for math and I don't know how many more hours it would take to learn the right way of doing it in terms of phpBB).

Both options have downsides

The biggest issue is that faking the number of thanks as a lot easier (and rather uncontrollable) than faking the number of posts.

AI-generated posts are more than obvious and thanks are just biased, by nature.

Speaking of the extremes - posts-based ranking encourages useless posts under one account (which would sooner or later become obvious to the community), while thanks-based ranking encourages creating a ton of sock accounts to thank your own posts and/or gather into groups to support each other and not support your opponents (equally obvious).

In any case, a non-linear curve for levels would quickly make it boring (to keep posting even more useless posts or keep abusing the thanks feature).

Anyway, we can evaluate both rankings and either keep them or abandon them - it doesn't hurt trying.

[MoniqueMaRie]

Ranking by number of posts --> many perhaps completely nonsensical posts could arise.

I would also prefer ranking by thanks, but you, @duome have just listed the disadvantages.
I do, however, find the idea interesting that people could join forces to shower someone / one another with thanks. It could lead to users making a lot more contacts among each other than they do now.

[Explorer]

We'll never know if we don't try, right? I think most Duome members are pretty nice and polite people. Sure, abuse might happen, but that's what the report button is there for, just like on any other forum.

[McGonnagle]

While I do have some concerns, Personally, I’m not at all interested in ranking systems, but I'm not entirely against the idea so far. Perhaps we could begin by discussing the potential benefits and drawbacks of introducing a ranking system together. How about we make it our short-term goal to eventually summarize each point in bullet form? Then, perhaps we could go through each of those points one by one and discuss them.

[HeyMarlana]

Some other sites use a form of ranking. Reddit for example has achievements to unlock and to identify users if they are something like a 1% Contributor in their community. Girls Ask Guys has an entirely different ranking, based on the "Xper" levels, and how well their answers are received. A gaming discussion platform I belong to also identifies some users with "reputation" points, showing how involved a user is with creating content and responding to others, all understood that their content is well-received.

It's not a perfect system to be "ranked" but it can also show which members are active and have some sort of knowledge about the goings-on in the community. It can allow a member to see someone with a certain ranking to know if they've established themselves, and if they can consider their input of any value based on the previous trust others had in them (ie. the "thanks" option), or for investing the time and efforts to create good content.

[McGonnagle]

Have you heard of the American supermarket chain, Trader Joe’s?
Although it is a large chain, Trader Joe’s is known for largely avoiding typical “game-like” marketing strategies such as aggressive price competition, coupons, and advertisements. Instead, they focus on offering the highest quality products possible at reasonable prices. This is achieved in part by reducing unnecessary promotional efforts and streamlining operations, which helps keep costs down.

They also place great importance on direct communication with customers. Rather than adopting self-checkout systems or extensive online services, Trader Joe’s deliberately emphasizes interaction with store staff and a pleasant, human-centered shopping experience.
Their primary customer base is said to consist of well-educated middle- to upper-middle-class individuals.

I have felt that this community, too, operates under a similar philosophy.

[duome]

Ranking (if we're talking about rankings) does not contradict with "interaction and pleasant experience" in any way.

Ranking, in a way, can actually encourage interaction (when you can kind of expect a helpful response from someone with a higher ranking), and it can be a pleasant experience (I used to post some French-Russian explanations on the original Duolingo forum and when at some point people started referencing my explanations, it was really pleasant to see it, and it could be described as some kind of "ranking", which both encouraged interaction and was a pleasant experience for everyone involved).

[Explorer]

I guess a practical solution would be to let users decide if they want to be part of the ranking system or not, just like they can choose to have an avatar or a signature. But I’m not sure if that’s even possible.

[McGonnagle]

Ranking (if we're talking about rankings) does not contradict with "interaction and pleasant experience" in any way.

Ranking, in a way, can actually encourage interaction (when you can kind of expect a helpful response from someone with a higher ranking), and it can be a pleasant experience (I used to post some French-Russian explanations on the original Duolingo forum and when at some point people started referencing my explanations, it was really pleasant to see it, and it could be described as some kind of "ranking", which both encouraged interaction and was a pleasant experience for everyone involved).

Ranking can definitely be a helpful guide for new users trying to figure out whose posts are worth paying attention to. But after spending some time in the forum, most of us—being adults—naturally develop our own sense of whose opinions are trustworthy and which posts are really worth reading. At that point, rankings can sometimes even start to feel a bit bothersome.

It’s always nice to feel appreciated when you help others, and it’s natural to want to contribute more. However, it’s important to be careful when those "pleasant feelings" become closely tied to the ranking system, because that can lead to some tricky psychological challenges.

[duome]

Maybe my "problem" is that I'm always looking for something positive and I don't really consider some things to be an issue, because we - being adults - can probably/hopefully get it right and take only the positives.

[McGonnagle]

Maybe my "problem" is that I'm always looking for something positive and I don't really consider some things to be an issue, because we - being adults - can probably/hopefully get it right and take only the positives.

I understand your optimistic perspective, and if everyone could actually put that mindset into practice in this community, it would truly be ideal.

However, I believe that to make the world a better place, optimism alone isn’t enough — critical thinking is also essential.

There are some long-standing issues in this forum, and I feel those problems could be further amplified by introducing a ranking system. Since existing problems might worsen, ignoring that risk and simply assuming “it will work out” doesn’t seem like mere optimism to me.

[duome]

I understand your optimistic perspective

It's not optimism - it's hope. Yet I can easily see if it's unrealistic - life taught me a few lessons, so I know what "all hope abandon ye who enter here" means.

[McGonnagle]

I understand your optimistic perspective

It's not optimism - it's hope. Yet I can easily see if it's unrealistic - life taught me a few lessons, so I know what "all hope abandon ye who enter here" means.

　　　
That's a good way of putting it!

[MoniqueMaRie]

(I used to post some French-Russian explanations on the original Duolingo forum and when at some point people started referencing my explanations, it was really pleasant to see it, and it could be described as some kind of "ranking", which both encouraged interaction and was a pleasant experience for everyone involved).

But after spending some time in the forum, most of us—being adults—naturally develop our own sense of whose opinions are trustworthy and which posts are really worth reading. At that point, rankings can sometimes even start to feel a bit bothersome.

Here in the forum I notice that there are people who almost always put a "thanks" when they have read a post and others who simply reply and don't care about "thanks". They hardly give any themselves and (probably) don't expect any.

Being quoted as a valuable post is certainly more valuable than a thanks.

[McGonnagle]

I fully understand @MoniqueMaRie concerns about evaluating based on the number of "thanks" , and I share similar concerns.

On the other hand, posts that are quoted frequently are not necessarily high-quality posts. The reason a post may be quoted frequently could be because it provides valuable information, but it could also be because it temporarily grabs attention, sparks discussions, or evokes emotional reactions. However, whether that post is truly valuable is another matter.

Additionally, there are concerns about evaluating based on the number of posts. If the number of posts directly correlates with evaluation, the focus may shift to simply accumulating "quantity," which risks lowering the quality and depth of the content. As a result, valuable information could get buried.

In the end, simple evaluation methods have limited criteria and fail to reflect many important factors, making it difficult to eliminate potential issues. To create a fair evaluation system, more complex evaluation criteria would be required. 　　

But, is it really necessary to go through all that effort to implement a ranking system?

[duome]

Post count is a default feature, there's no need to question it - it's there because it's the usual manner (as @rudi said).

The options we have are:

• leave the post count as is (like 493)
• put 493 into a crown image to (merely) give it a visual representation
• translate 493 to L6 (if we stick to the original Duolingo curve for levels)

None of these options should bring any concerns because we're not really changing anything, we're just applying a visual style to the numbers, which doesn't immediately make it a bad thing and it doesn't bring in any new issues.

[antonmo]

Could you make a poll ?

My opinion, If we’re locked to number of posts only, I’d just leave it as is

[McGonnagle]

Post count is a default feature, there's no need to question it - it's there because it's the usual manner (as @rudi said).

The options we have are:
- leave the post count as is (like 493)
- put 493 into a crown image to (merely) give it a visual representation
- translate 493 to L6 (if we stick to the original Duolingo curve for levels)

None of these options should bring *any* concerns because we're not really changing anything, we're just applying a visual style to the numbers, which doesn't immediately make it a bad thing and it doesn't bring in any new issues.

Just out of curiosity — will there be a crown for 'Thanks' counts as well?

[McGonnagle]

@antonmo ,

I also think in the end we'll need to make a poll—but do you think if we can do that after all the concerns have been brought up?

[McGonnagle]

My opinion, If we’re locked to number of posts only, I’d just leave it as is

I totally agree.