Tips & Notes for Units 29 onwards

[Stuart9629]

Does anyone know if there are any tips and notes for units 29 and beyond and where they might be? The tips and notes for previous Units were fairly comprehensive but were on the previous dome.eu page. From 29 onwards there seems to be only the guidebook per unit available which does not describe the use of the grammar involved.

[Morag Kerr]

Such a shame there isn't more activity on here.

As far as I know, when Duolingo changed everything around two or three years ago, all the tips and notes were abandoned in favour of these minimal "hints" that now appear. As these last sections were added after that time, no further notes were produced.

When I started this course in 2019 the tips and notes were the best thing about it. The structure of the course was quite different then and the notes were written to apply to each module in turn. It was great to read the notes, try to digest them, then dive into the lessons trying to remember the instructions and get it right. Now, I have no idea what new learners do if they don't know about the old notes on duome.eu. It must be very difficult.

I remember the big extension to the course appearing in 2020, and all the new notes coming out, and the joy of reading everything explained in such an engaging and accessible manner. Then after I finished that (twice) and got the tree gold (twice) and then legendary (twice) - I had two accounts and was running one a number of modules after the first for extra practice - I went off to do some German. I discovered that more Gaelic had appeared, but the course was so changed by then and there were no notes, and I was working blind. I never really grasped these later lessons.

I realised I was forgetting my Gaelic, and the revision exercises are hopeless, so I deleted the entire course and started again, yesterday. It's all right as revision, it's all coming back to me, but I dread to think how anyone new to the language would be coping with the present format. It's a real backward step.

[John Little]

The problem is that Duolingo keeps changing things so course specific tips and notes in all languages quickly go out of date. Unless someone makes it a full time job, it's impossible to keep up with it.

[Morag Kerr]

I can see it's a problem. I had hoped that when Duolingo changed something it was in order to make it better. I'm not at all sure about the changing from the skills medallions (or whatever they were) to this endless snake though. What I am sure about is that in the Gaelic course at least, removing the tips and notes is a disaster. They were the best bit about it when I started. That and the humorous sentences, which I'm not sure have been retained. I have seen that we now have a "Lilidh", like that's a Gaelic name.

There's no indication now that the tips and notes even exist. Obviously they don't line up with the way the course is structured now, but at least if you can access them the information you need is in there to be found. But if you don't know this, I don't know how you manage. Overall my impression is that the course as it is now is much poorer than it was in 2021. If the original creators had been asked to produce notes for the last part of the course to add to what's already available it would have filled a gap, but I think they were "let go". Oh for the days when you could actually chat with them on the Duolingo forum. I learned so much.

I'm not sure if the new format is the reason I have run into the sand on German. I got so far and then it all just seemed so difficult. There were rules I didn't really understand, and if I didn't get it then another mistake. The hints are hopeless. I did look at the original German notes before the format changed and they weren't fun like the Gaelic ones, and at the beginning the advice was just to pile in and see how you got on, but maybe I need to find these on Duome and see if they contain any enlightenment.

[CFCUJY]

Yes, it really is too bad that that there aren't notes that track as closely with Duo as they did in the beginning. I miss the grammar bits that provided clues as to what was changing or new in each Duo lesson. I found that the sequence on the old notes and tips page tracks with the sequence in the Duo SG beginning lessons. But the titles are all different so you have to keep track or do word searches to find the place on the notes page that is helpful.

That said, Section 3 Unit 29 in the version of the course I'm looking at today, tracks with my notes from the "Highland 2" topic on the old notes and tips page ( https://duome.eu/tips/en/gd#Highland-2 ). They still seem to follow the same sequence to me - so each of the new lessons (30 and onwards) tracks with the lessons after "Highland 2" on the old notes page under the old title. But Section 3, has several new lessons now at the end that don't seem to have a section on the old notes and tips page. So the sequence is ---

Section 3 Unit 55 Describe people in detail --> "Iain" (on the old notes page)
Section 3 Unit 56 Form Genitive Plurals --> Extra genitive case practice like "Genitive 2" in the old notes
Section 3 Unit 57 Count Family members --> All new material
Section 3 Unit 58 Form complex sentences -to- Section 3 Unit 64 Discuss Gaelic Organizations - also looks like all new material without notes on the old tips and notes page. Although all the lessons in Duo now have sample sentences.

Edit to add what I mean by "all new material": OK, so not really "all new". There is new vocabulary, like all the numeric pronouns (words for counts of people) in Unit 57 Counting Family Members. And these are followed by the genitive case - which was already covered, but that is not explicitly stated anywhere. Unit 58 Form Complex Sentences adds complexity by using several linking-type words [far (where), mar(as), ged (although, though), gus (until), mar-thà (already), mus (before), bhon (since), leis nach (as ...not), leis gun (as...that), na (what)]. But I didn't figure that out until I was well into the lessons and looking at my notes. Unit 59 Talk About What Might Happen covers future tense practice (also other tenses) that includes use of relative future (especially in different kinds of questions) and vocabulary for talking about sports events. Unit 60 Discuss Government includes terms for talking about what the government is doing, practice with relative future verb forms, along with other practice. Units 59 and 60 also include practice with ma/mura (if/if not) sentence patterns). So --- Although it is "new" it is building on what was in the previous lessons. But since there is nothing on the notes and tips page (and only sample sentences on Duo), learners have to figure this out themselves as they are doing the lessons.

The old notes and tips page does have 3 new titles added at the end -- so maybe someone is thinking about updating the page.

Duo SG (especially the new material) really is best used if you already have taken some classes and are looking for more general practice.

[Morag Kerr]

That's useful to know. I found when I went back to do the new material that some of it involved changes to the way it had been taught before. I particularly noticed that nouns were lenited following the person-numbers - triùir bhalaich for example, when it was triùir balaich before. It was quite disconcerting suddenly to get a "wrong answer" boing for something that had been right before.

Now I've started the course again from scratch I notice other changes. I'm sure Donald used to be Dòmhnuill but he's now Dòmhnall. The plural of seòmar is now seòmraichean which I'm sure it wasn't before. Seòmairean? Not sure.

I'm also getting confused about when a noun should be lenited after "aon". Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I don't remember this from the first time round. I was working on the hypothesis that masculine nouns aren't lenited but feminine ones are - or was it the other way round? But then some nouns didn't seem to fit whatever pattern I thought I had discerned. Maybe if someone is still tending to the tips and notes it could be worth re-reading to see if anything has been updated.

I think the order the material is in now might actually be better, if only there were matching notes! But I'm missing the really amusing sentences, and the sense that we're looking into a rather dysfunctional little community where Iain is rather unpopular and Màiri steals underpants and they eventually get married! If they've dropped that, and sentences like "Sgrìobh Seòras leabhar cudromach ann an Diùra", the course will be poorer.

I think what a lot of people are looking for is a "safe" (and free) way to get into the language before spending money on more advanced courses, or rocking up to a conversation evening in a pub (or even our Gaelic psalm-singing evenings). So not making it accessible to the absolute beginner is a mistake in my view.

I think the extremely sparse and frankly unhelpful tips that are available now are a retrograde step. To have something available even if it isn't always read would surely be a better idea. And the Gaelic notes were so amusingly written that at the time they were actually attracting people into the course by themselves. Ah well, it is what it is I suppose.

[Morag Kerr]

I was told the other day that Doulingo has turned all the non-core languages, which includes Gaelic of course, over to AI bots. No human involvement at all. So no wonder it's going down the drain. I suppose the unfilled headings in the notes were created by someone who intended to add to the material available, but got the boot to save money.

[CFCUJY]

I've read the same thing, but I haven't seen any differences in Scottish Gaelic nor anything going down the drain - yet. I don't have a paid plan, so I'm just getting various types of sentence practice just like always and in the "old" lessons all the sentences I've seen are the same as those used in the original SG course versions. Maybe there is something different happening in the paid version.

I've been taking notes since SG showed up on Duolingo and the only new sentences I've seen are in the most recent lessons at the end of Section 3 - Units 56 - 64. All that grammar tracks with some more advanced SG classes I've taken, so I don't "feel" like there are errors (but of course how would I know!?!). I did post a question related to a relative future verb form on the reddit/gaidhlig subforum a few months ago, but then the next time I got the sentence on Duo, it had magically been "fixed" and was using a verb form that made sense to me.

I think there must be thousands of SG sentences in their database for the original lessons. Maybe that's why everything I get on Duo, I've already seen - there is no need for AI to add variety for new learners. All those sentences were written by native, fluent Scots and one of the original volunteers was a Gaelic medium teacher. Which is all just to say I don't see SG going down the drain from AI - at least not yet, for the typical standard sentence practice.

For example, take a look at this article from 2021. It talks about the original volunteer writers.
https://futurescot.com/they-say-its-a-d ... ic-online/

In spite of my experience, of course there could be problems, because the Duolingo corporation is in it for the money they can make. I just haven't seen any SG issues beyond grammar or spelling I didn't understand. If I think something is wrong I "report" it on Duolingo, but I've heard that you have to use a computer to see the report option (as opposed to a phone). And, as usual, Duo never gets back to anyone. I've posted my SG questions here, or https://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/foram/index.php or https://www.reddit.com/r/gaidhlig/ and so far have always gotten an answer. Also, I've heard there are groups on facebook for SG Duolingo. (But I happen to h*te facebook so don't use it.)

It's too bad Duo shut down it's forum - because that was really helpful. It was probably too expensive for Duo to maintain and "police."

[Morag Kerr]

I do have a paid plan, but I don't think Duolingo differentiates in terms of the content of the courses. I am seeing a difference though, although I'm only on unit 26 of section 2 on my re-doing of the course. When I first did it, it was the skills medallions, so quite different. I'm missing the quirky sentences, the "we all hate Iain" vibe, Mairi stealing the underpants and so on. But maybe some of these come later. It just seems blander, more like the intensely boring German course.

I think it must be very difficult now to make sense of the course without the tips and notes. I don't think I could do it. These light-hearted, humorous but information-packed notes were the best part of the course, and now all there is for the uninitiated is a few pretty useless example sentences. How do you figure out alienable versus inalienable possessives without notes, especially as it isn't consistent? The whole thing about two taking the singular? Yes, young children acquiring language for the first time do it, but they have nothing else to do but soak up language every waking minute. Adults do better with an explanation so that they can understand their mistakes, rather than staring blankly at the screen asking, why? (For example, I got dinged this morning for answering "Chan eil mi ag ithe iasg" instead of "Cha bhi mi ag ithe iasg", but having read the notes I immediately realised my slip. How long does it take someone who hasn't read them to realise that the future tense is used for the habitual in Gaelic?

I am noticing a change, which seems as if it might be that feminine nouns are being slenderised in the dative, but I really haven't made sense of it. All I know is that sometimes I'm getting marked wrong for typing "a' chaileag" when apparently it should be "a' chaileig", and "a' ghrian" when apparently it should be "a' ghrèin" - which I recognise as genitive. I need an explanation, but there doesn't seem to be one. (That's why I was talking about it to my Gaelic-speaking friend, but he doesn't even know what the word "dative" means.)

"Tiodhlac" seems to have been removed from the course in favour of "preasant", and while sometimes you get the mark for answering "tiodhlac", sometimes you don't. The word for "concert" now seems to be "consart" when previously "cuirm-chiùil" was taught, and I am now always marked wrong for answering what we were taught before. (I also note that Google translate only offers "tiodhlac" and "cuirm-chiùil" for these translations.)

There's something weird going on in the English when dealing with midges. "Meanbh-chuileag" seems to be being treated as a singular word in English, as in "the midge are out", or maybe is out, I don't remember. In this case the Gaelic seems to be fine, but the English is bizarre. I can barely remember any time I have ever felt the need to refer to a single midge in English.

I'm getting on OK using the course as it is now for revision, and it's only occasionally that I hit something I don't understand. I just don't see how it can be attractive to beginners now, that you're left to figure out the rules for yourself without any help. I'm pleased to hear that things are being fixed though. I had the impression that nothing was being done. I have been reporting a lot of missing audio, basically anything with a hyphen, or beginning with "a'" and so on, and the last couple of lessons didn't seem to have any of these, but it could have been coincidence. It's worrying if there are no human beings interacting with the material on Duo's side though. I used to get emails saying that my suggestion had been accepted, but no longer.

I don't do Facebook either, and I've been permanently locked out of Reddit because of a password issue I can't resolve, but that forum looks interesting, I'll give it a look. Duolingo decided to dump all their volunteer course creators and go professional-only. They had a damn good team doing it for no money, just for the love of it, and got rid of them. Now it's "too expensive" to maintain the course. Huh. The forums were very useful but I can see their problem. They were repeatedly being cyber-attacked, probably by school-children who didn't like being forced to use the programme, and I think they were always concerned that adults might be able to use the forums to contact children. Knowing how devious paedophiles can be, it was probably a realistic concern.

Thanks for the 2021 article, I hadn't seen it. I interacted with all three of these people on the forums back in 2020 and 2021 - I started the course in January 2020, before covid, but had to stop an in-person course I had just started when the lockdowns started, and I'm not comfortable going into crowded pubs without a mask even now. Maybe I should take that further though, I think there are conversational meet-ups within reach of me.

It's probably not as bad as I implied, but I don't think what we have now is an improvement over the 2021 course.