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how common is romanising your language

User avatar
buho

how common is romanising your language

Post by buho »

romanisation is transliterating your own language(say persian) to roman script.
just how common is it with your language? and why do you think is the case? and do you use english words heavily to the point you forget equivalent words in your own language? also do give us some sense of how it looks just for funnies, if nothong else.

I'll start with hindustani(or hindi/urdu, whatever you prefer)+english, also called hinglish:

to aise kuchh likhne ki koshish kar raha hun main apni bahasha mein, proper to nahi hai magar mujhe ummed hai ki aap sab samajh jaayenge. ye english nahi hai, itna to guess kaga hi kiya hoga aapne. ye hindi english aur kuchh matra mein urdu ka mix hai.

got this idea from @XeO3's post.

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McGonnagle
Japan

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by McGonnagle »

buho wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 2:45 pm

do you use english words heavily to the point you forget equivalent words in your own language?

  
  
Among Japan's so-called celebrities on TV show, there are people who talk like this.

レストランのブッキングをアレンジしてくれたコンシェルジュのおかげで、ファビュラスなディナーをエンジョイできました。(Resutoran[restaurant] no bukkingu[booking] wo arenji[arrange] shite kureta Konsherujyu[concierge] no okage de, fabyurasu[fabulous] na dinaa[dinner] wo enjyoi[enjoy] dekimashita.):Thanks to the concierge who arranged the restaurant booking, I was able to enjoy a fabulous dinner.

  
What do you find in this?? Even if we concede the word 'レストラン/Resutoran[restaurant],' can't we express the other words without using loanwords? Of course, we can!

The increase of loanwords is an important phenomenon in Japanese, reflecting the transformation of language and cultural influences. Historically, the Japanese language has borrowed a considerable amount of vocabulary from Chinese and created unique neologisms based on it. This process was made possible due to a deep understanding of Chinese characters, leading to many new Japanese-made terms being accepted in China as well. However, after World War II, Japan as a whole became strongly influenced by Western culture, particularly that of the United States, and began to incorporate many English words.

This situation presents several problems. First, when English words are adopted into Japanese, they are often accepted without understanding their original morphemes or structures. As a result, not only is the original meaning and nuance of the words lost, but desirable meanings may also be added, leading to the so-called "coolness" taking on a life of its own. For those with a high level of proficiency in their native Japanese, this phenomenon can feel unbearable. There have even been lawsuits against NHK, a semi-governmental broadcasting station in Japan, regarding this issue, but it seems to attract little widespread concern.

Furthermore, in recent years, it seems that English words have not been able to sufficiently meet their desire for sophistication, leading to an increase in the use of French words instead. Amid a demand for clarity in language, there is a trend to emphasize 'coolness.' For example, many people feel that expressing "管理人 (kan'ri'nin) -which means 'Condo/apartment manager'- in Japanese is less appealing than using the French term "コンシェルジュ(Kon'sherujyu) from 'concierge', as it conveys a sense of specialness and sophistication. In the central part of Tokyo, there are numerous skyscrapers where referring to the staff as 'Kon'sherujyu' has become commonplace. (They are Japanese and don't seem to speak French, but by being called "Kon'sherujyu," it seems they can spread a sophisticated whiff of Paris in Tokyo's skyscrapers. Could this elevate the real estate value? And does calling them "管理人 (kan'ri'nin)" in Japanese lower the value? Or could it help boost their motivation at work? If I refer to them in Japanese as '管理人さん (Kan'rinin-san)' as we used to, would they feel looked down upon?) This phenomenon raises the question for me as to why expressions in Japanese are considered "uncool." Ultimately, it may be a phenomenon similar to "Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur." (Whatever said in Latin, seems profound.) ??

User avatar
Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by Basler Biker »

It happens in all languages, also swedish (which I am learning) that loanwords get written the local way, so that when spoken by a native it sounds like the loadword (more or less - because depends on similarities and availability of sounds in both languages)

Swedish has it from long ago, when it was ruled by a French King. So you would have words like

  1. Fåtölj (fauteuil) - armchair
  2. Parfym (parfum) - perfume
  3. Sofflé (soufflé) - souffle
  4. Byrå (bureau) - chest of drawers or office
  5. Servett (serviette) - napkin
  6. Kuvert (couvert) - envelope
  7. Resurs (ressource) - resource
  8. Direktör (directeur) - director
  9. Champinjon (champignon) - mushroom

But it's also done with the newer English loanwords

  1. Dajt (date) - romantic meeting
  2. Sajt (site) - website
  3. Snajdigt (snazzy) - stylish, neat
  4. Fejk (fake) - counterfeit or phony
  5. Dejt (date) - romantic appointment
  6. Klicka (click) - to click (as with a mouse)
  7. Skajpa (Skype) - to make a video call via Skype
  8. Mejl (mail) - email
  9. Stajla (style) - to style or show off
  10. Krasha (crash) - for a system to fail or an accident

At a rate of some 100 loanwords (I estimate) added to official dictionaries (meaning that the word has become rather common use) that means, for a persons daily vocabulary of say 10.000 words (in a specific branch, maybe - we're not all in ICT...) that 1% is changing, added every year ;-)
That's a lot, no?

BB - Basler Biker
Positivity and constructiveness will prevail. Either you win or you learn, but you never lose.
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / getting better every day :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by McGonnagle »

The Japanese language contains many loanwords derived from European languages. Incorporating things and concepts that did not originally exist in Japan through loanwords is generally not considered problematic. However, there is often a phenomenon where existing Japanese vocabulary and concepts are replaced by loanwords in order to give one of those categories a superior status. As a result, the Japanese vocabulary that has been replaced is positioned in a subordinate role, and there are concerns that it may carry discriminatory nuances. Additionally, in Japan, loanwords are often introduced primarily under the influence of advertising companies, rather than being a natural choice made by individuals. This suggests that they are blindly accepted due to the influence of advertising and marketing.
 
(Edit: This↓ is totally my embarrassing misunderstanding.)
It is difficult to provide a concrete example to non-native Japanese speaker, but for instance, I have an experience from when I visited a vineyard in the U.S. The woman who guided us through the vineyard repeatedly used the term "variété" while explaining the types of grapes used. After her explanation, a boy around high school age asked, "What is the difference between variété and variety?" In this situation, the woman’s choice of the word "variété" might have been intended to provide a more specialized description of the types and characteristics of wine. However, her choice of words could also be interpreted as an attempt to emphasize her authority and sophistication as a wine expert.

It would be ideal if everyone in Japan could hold questions like that boy, but
the differences between Japanese and European languages, including English, are too vast compared to the differences between English and French. Therefore, when Japanese is replaced by a European language, it often happens without any doubt, being accepted as "something more sophisticated that has a European flair" without a full understanding. This demonstrates the potential for loanwords to carry a privileged status that unfairly devalues existing expressions in Japanese.

Thus, the use of loanwords in Japanese contributes not only to vocabulary selection but also to the formation of a cultural hierarchy. When loanwords hold a privileged status, existing Japanese expressions can be unfairly devalued, leading to a loss of cultural identity. This phenomenon reflects how social values are expressed through language use, indicating a need for us to reconsider how we Japanese people use language and how we shape culture.

Last edited by McGonnagle on Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Basler Biker
Switzerland

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by Basler Biker »

McGonnagle wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:15 pm

"What is the difference between variété and variety?" In this situation, the woman’s choice of the word "variété" might have been intended to provide a more specialized description of the types and characteristics of wine. However, her choice of words could also be interpreted as an attempt to emphasize her authority and sophistication as a wine expert.

The guide could have used "cépage" making her more "expert" even.
A "cépage" expresses better the differences of grapes, rather than just a "variety"
Variety or cultivar is for plants in general. In her "business" she ought to use cépage.
UNLESS she means same plant - cépage - but with minor genetic improvements, maybe.

DeepSeek wrote:

When discussing wine and grapes, the French terms "cépage" and **"variété" refer to specific concepts related to grape varieties. Here's what they mean and how they can be translated into English:

  1. Cépage:

    • In French, "cépage" refers to the specific type or variety of grape used in winemaking. It emphasizes the grape variety itself, such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay, or Pinot Noir.
    • In English, the closest term is "grape variety" or simply "varietal" (though "varietal" is more commonly used to describe a wine made primarily from a single grape variety).
    • Example: "This wine is made from the Cabernet Sauvignon cépage" → "This wine is made from the Cabernet Sauvignon grape variety."
  2. Variété:

    • "Variété" is a more general term that can mean "variety" in French. In the context of grapes, it can also refer to the grape variety, but it is less specific to winemaking than "cépage."
    • In English, you would typically use "variety" or "grape variety."
    • Example: "This region grows many different variétés of grapes" → "This region grows many different varieties of grapes."

Which English words should she have used?

  • For "cépage," the best English equivalent is "grape variety" or "varietal."
  • For "variété," the best English equivalent is "variety" or "grape variety."

Using these terms will make the discussion clearer and more precise for English-speaking audiences.

The word "varietal" is new to me - exists? or is AI wrong?

BB - Basler Biker
Positivity and constructiveness will prevail. Either you win or you learn, but you never lose.
Native :belgium: :netherlands: / fluent :fr: :de: :uk: / getting better every day :sweden: / fan of :switzerland: (bs/bl)

McGonnagle
Japan

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by McGonnagle »

@Basler Biker
That's very interesting!! Then, I must acknowledge that the example I provided was somewhat off the mark! Now I think she said "varietal"... sorry...

Last edited by McGonnagle on Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
McGonnagle
Japan

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by McGonnagle »

Basler Biker wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:45 pm

The guide could have used "cépage" making her more "expert" even.

  

LOL!! But I realized that she was not trying to be so. My comment was an embarrassing misunderstanding.

User avatar
Enzfj2
Ukraine

Re: how common is romanising your language

Post by Enzfj2 »

Turkish has a lot of French loan words, which are sometimes hard to recognise due to their phonetic spelling, but what any tourist can see:
adisyon — addition — bill/check
asansör – ascenseur – lift/elevator
büfe – buffet
döviz – devises – currency
garson — garçon (lit. 'boy') — waiter
tirbuşon — tire-bouchon — corkscrew

What's interesting, the name of semiprecious stone 'turqoise'. , which is obviously French and refers to Türkiye, returned to Turkish as 'turkuaz', though they have another word for it, 'firuze', probably from Persian.

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