«Ber du ikke for sjelen min lenger?» Topic is solved

[weerwater]

Hope I'm not overloading you all with questions... Just one more for the weekend if you don't mind,
I'm caught between languages here.

Why is 'lenger' at the end?

What is the rule for this order in Norwegian.
It cannot just be following the English exercise I think.
I would put lenger next to the ikke, and the cause at the end.
Ber du ikke lenger for sjelen min?

Anyone?

[spencer1411]

You might be thinking of it as "Do you no longer pray for my soul?" but you can also translate it as "Do you not pray for my soul anymore?" which hopefully makes it more obvious that, as a time expression, it goes at the end. (As a mental exercise, consider replacing it with a different time expression. For example, "Do you not pray for my soul on Wednesdays?")

[anamorphism]

as for the "why"? the language just developed that way.

most languages have different preferences on where to place certain adverbials, and then additional preferences on order.

english and norwegian mostly align. certain adverbials (not, never, always, only, just, ...) tend to be placed as close to the verb as possible. english differs from norwegian here mostly just because we no longer adhere to the v2 rule, and we tend to place them before the verb. adverbials will generally be ordered as manner, place, then time. time and place adverbials will generally go at the start or end of a sentence.

"no longer" is just a weird one in english, but, as spencer1411 stated, we follow the same pattern as norwegian with the equivalent "not ... anymore".

these "rules" are just something you need to learn.

• natural: Jeg spiser is i Oslo på lørdager. I eat ice cream in Oslo on Saturdays.
• natural: På lørdager spiser jeg is i Oslo. On Saturdays, I eat ice cream in Oslo.
• not so natural: Jeg spiser is på lørdager i Oslo. I eat ice cream on Saturdays in Oslo.
• not so natural: I Oslo på lørdager spiser jeg is. In Oslo, on Saturdays, I eat ice cream.

and so on.

[weerwater]

You might be thinking of it as "Do you no longer pray for my soul?" but you can also translate it as "Do you not pray for my soul anymore?" which hopefully makes it more obvious that, as a time expression, it goes at the end.
(...)

Thank you very much for clarifying the options in English.
Indeed the DL excercise: "Don't you pray for my soul anymore?".

However, I (have to) reshape each exercise into a fitting -and grammatically correct- Dutch statement.
(I think many DL learners follow this routine for their native language.)
And the reverse translation from Dutch has to be a match too.

If the grammatical / natural Norwegian offers a different order, I would also want to learn that.
And sometimes I wonder, is DL opting for the 'practical' version of Norwegian or the natural one.

BTW: In Dutch 'anymore' is 'niet meer' too. But the 'for my soul' -part would ,as a rule, come at the end. (Used in questions, that part could alternatively come at the start.)

[weerwater]

as for the "why"? the language just developed that way.

...

adverbials will generally be ordered as manner, place, then time. time and place adverbials will generally go at the start or end of a sentence.

...

This helps a lot. Thanks.

[anamorphism]

languages are strange.

to complicate matters further, and to maybe provide more examples of the ridiculousness of languages, we also have "no more" and "nevermore" as more old-fashioned adverbials in english with similar uses.

however, there are so many "rules" that govern how i would use them.

i would never use "no more" and "nevermore" in a question.

in standard sentences, only "no more" and "no longer" can come at the end.

• i will pray for your soul no more/no longer.

all three can come at the beginning though.

• no more/no longer/nevermore will i pray for your soul.

"no longer" is the only one that sounds natural to me in the middle position.

• i will no longer pray for your soul.

also fun that, when fronting these, we revert to adhering to the v2 rule. you either need to have a modal verb, or add our wonky "do" helping verb.

• i pray for your soul no more/no longer.
• no more/no longer do i pray for your soul.

"nevermore" doesn't work in either of those two sentences.

and so on and so forth :P

[Basler Biker]

...
Let's ask an expert once more (and evaluate what it's worth, and discuss the outcome)
This experiment is just to see what we can obtain from chatGPT
It is not intended to counter any other answer already given here

in Dutch we can say one of these three, a.o. depending on context (as always)

1. Bid je niet langer voor mijn ziel? => Ber du ikke lenger for sjelen min ?
2. Bid je niet meer voor mijn ziel? => Ber du ikke for sjelen min lenger?
3. Bid je voor mijn ziel niet meer? => Ber du for sjelen min ikke lenger ?

me:
evaluate the following norwegian sentences - is grammar good, allowed, or wrong
- Ber du for sjelen min ikke lenger ?
- Ber du ikke lenger for sjelen min ?
- Ber du ikke for sjelen min lenger ?

ChatGPT

Let's evaluate the three Norwegian sentences you provided:

"Ber du for sjelen min ikke lenger?"
Grammar: Good
This sentence is grammatically correct. It translates to "Are you praying for my soul no longer?" in English.

"Ber du ikke lenger for sjelen min?"
Grammar: Good
This sentence is also grammatically correct. It translates to "Are you no longer praying for my soul?" in English.

"Ber du ikke for sjelen min lenger?"
Grammar: Good
This sentence is grammatically correct as well. It has the same meaning as the previous sentence: "Are you no longer praying for my soul?"

All three sentences are grammatically sound and convey similar meanings, but they have slightly different word orders. The choice among them might depend on the specific context or emphasis you want to convey in a conversation.

chatGPT:

the best translation is "Don't you pray for my soul anymore?"

"Are you praying for my soul no longer?" = allowed grammar
"Aren't you praying for my soul any longer?" = allowed grammar
"Do you pray for my soul no more?" = wrong
"Don't you pray for my soul anymore?"= best answer