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question about this Duolingo sentence Topic is solved

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buho

question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by buho »

the sentence in question( entonces, ¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas?
the sentence in question( entonces, ¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas?
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can i replace this sentence with Entonces, ¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hicieran fiestas tan ruidosas? without any change in meaning?
If so, what's the difference between the two?

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gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

The sentence in question is, "Entonces, ¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas?"

buho wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:59 pm

can i replace this sentence with Entonces, ¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hicieran fiestas tan ruidosas? without any change in meaning?
If so, what's the difference between the two?

No, the second one is not correct. Yes, your proposed sentence is correct.

Both hagan and hicieran are conjugations of the "hacer" verb in subjunctive mood. The former is the present while the latter is the imperfect. The subjunctive mood is quite a broad topic, so I'll just make an brief example of both cases.

The present subjunctive (hagan) can be used as an imperative.

  • quiero que hagan su tarea (I want you to do your homework)

  • quiero que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas (I want you not to have such noisy parties)

The imperfect subjunctive (hicieran) can be used after the conditional indicative to express a wish.

  • quisiera que hicieran su tarea (I would like you to do your homework)

  • quisiera que no hicieran fiestas tan ruidosas (I wish you wouldn't have such noisy parties)

Last edited by gmads on Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

[mention]buho[/mention] ,

I found a beginner's article on the subjunctive, and although it may seem to be a bit lengthy, I think it's well structured, easy to follow, and concise.

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Cifi

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by Cifi »

Thanks [mention]buho[/mention] for the question and [mention]gmads[/mention] for the answer.

My guess would have been that past (imperfect) subjunctive were possible, so I'm glad to learn about it.

But when I search e.g. for "le dijo que" on Reverso context, I see quite a lot of sentences that use imperfect subjunctive. Are these all wrong?

https://context.reverso.net/traduccion/ ... e dijo que

(You can look at "told him/her/you to" in order to get rid of examples where someone told someone about something, thus filtering for command-like statements.)

Native: :de: Intermediate: :uk: Lower intermediate: :es: Beginner: :fr: Absolute beginner: 🇬🇷
(If there are errors in what I'm writing in either language, please do correct me - I'll never take it as offense or something like that.)

User avatar
buho

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by buho »

thanks again for the explanation and the links, [mention]gmads[/mention]!
i was finally feeling confident with subjunctives, and then this sentence came up :mrgreen: .

User avatar
buho

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by buho »

Cifi wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:49 am

My guess would have been that past (imperfect) subjunctive were possible, so I'm glad to learn about it.

yes, that was my guess too!

User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

[mention]buho[/mention] , [mention]Cifi[/mention] , [mention]EranBarLev[/mention] , [mention]Chrisinom[/mention] , [mention]LICA98[/mention]

Cifi said:

My guess would have been that past (imperfect) subjunctive were possible

Indeed Cifi, you're right! :D

For some reason I got stuck on the use with the conditional and discarded the possibility of being linked to the past indicative.

Therefore, yes, if the main clause is in the preterite indicative and we have an order, prohibition, request, etc from one person to another, the imperfect subjunctive then follows.

Ironically, Duo's original sentence seems to be wrong.

  • If the main sentence is in the preterite indicative, the subordinate one should then be in the imperfect subjunctive:
    -- les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hicieran fiestas tan ruidosas
  • If the subordinate sentence is in the present subjunctive, the main sentence should then be in the preterite perfect indicative:
    -- les han dicho a sus vecinos que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas

Conjugation of hacer and decir.


I'm going to prepare and share a summary table to compensate for my mistake and the confusion created :D

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User avatar
buho

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by buho »

[mention]gmads[/mention], so you're saying there's still some hope for me to understand subjunctives? that sounds relieving.
jokes aside, thanks for following up. I really appreciate it.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

buho wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:08 pm

@gmads, so you're saying there's still some hope for me to understand subjunctives? that sounds relieving.
jokes aside, thanks for following up. I really appreciate it.

You are beyond that, you are there!

Cheers!

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Antinomy - Imagination

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User avatar
gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

Lo prometido es deuda...

Cada oración mostrada en las tablas consta de una cláusula principal con un tiempo verbal en indicativo, seguida de una cláusula subordinada con un tiempo verbal en subjuntivo.

Para que resulten sencillas de analizar, las oraciones están planteadas de la forma más directa y simple posible: "Quiero que aprendas" vs. "Quiero que aprendas mucho en la universidad"; "Habré deseado que bailes" vs. "Cuántas veces no habré deseado que bailes".

Es importante tener en mente que si bien, todas las oraciones son válidas, no todas representan combinaciones comunes o usuales.

Tiempos de indicativoPresente de subjuntivo
PresenteQuiero que aprendas
PretéritoTrabajaron para que gane
FuturoDescansaré cuando se vayan
Pretérito perfectoHan rezado para que sane
Futuro perfectoHabré deseado que bailes
ImperativoLlámame cuando llegues


Tiempos de indicativoPretérito perfecto de subjuntivo
PresenteNo creo que hayan llegado
PretéritoSe molestó de que lo hayan despedido
FuturoMe hablará cuando se haya calmado
Pretérito perfectoNos ha alegrado que hayan ganado
Futuro perfectoTe habrá soprendido que haya llovido
ImperativoLlámame cuando hayas llegado


Tiempos de indicativoImperfecto de subjuntivo
PresenteSiento mucho que perdieras
ImperfectoNo dejaban que saliera
PretéritoMurió antes de que llegaras
CondicionalTe visitaría si quisiera
Pretérito perfectoHan decidido que no entrenara
PluscuamperfectoLe habían indicado que no fumara
Condicional perfectoHabría sido mejor que ayudara


Tiempos de indicativoPluscuamperfecto de subjuntivo
PresenteNo creo que hubieras perdido
ImperfectoDeseaba que hubieran viajado
PretéritoNo creí que hubiera sabido
CondicionalLo sabría si me lo hubiera dicho
Pretérito perfectoHa actuado como si hubiera matado
PluscuamperfectoNo había posibilidad de que hubiera sabido
Condicional perfectoLo habría ayudado si me lo hubiera pedido



:hash:  ㆍespañol ㆍgramática ㆍSentenceDiscussion

Last edited by gmads on Tue May 09, 2023 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

Y ahora... oraciones completas para mostrar en qué contexto podría usarse cada combinación previamente expuesta.

También traduje cada oración lo más fielmente posible. Por favor avísenme si notan algún error.


Presente del subjuntivo

  • ahora que entres a la universidad, quiero que aprendas mucho para que seas el mejor
    (now that you enter the university, I want you to learn a lot so you become the best)

  • los miembros del equipo trabajaron para que gane esta fase eliminatoria
    (the team members worked for me to win this knockout stage)

  • me he divertido, pero descansaré cuando se vayan todos los invitados
    (I have had fun, but I'll rest when all the guests leave)

  • todos los feligreses han rezado para que sane de esta enfermedad terminal
    (all parishioners have prayed for me to heal from this terminal illness)

  • ¡cuántas veces no habré deseado que bailes conmigo toda la noche!
    (how many times have I not wished you would dance with me all night!)

  • por favor, ¡llámame cuando llegues!
    (please call me when you arrive!)


Pretérito perfecto del subjuntivo

  • no veo ninguna luz prendida, así que no creo que hayan llegado todavía
    (I don't see any lights on so I don't think they've arrived yet)

  • con justa razón se molestó de que lo hayan despedido, siempre fue muy cumplido
    (he quite rightly got upset for having been fired, he was always very responsible)

  • no te preocupes, ya me hablará cuando se haya calmado
    (don't worry, he'll talk to me when he's calmed down)

  • ciertamente nos ha alegrado que hayan ganado el primer lugar
    (it has certainly made us happy you have won the first place)

  • es inusual, así que te habrá sorprendido que haya llovido de esa manera
    (it is unusual, so you it may have surprised you it rained like this)

  • por favor, ¡llámame cuando hayas llegado!
    (please call me when you have arrived!)


Imperfecto del subjuntivo

  • de verdad, siento mucho que perdieras después de todo el esfuerzo que hiciste
    (truly, I'm really sorry you lost after all the effort you put in)

  • era ya muy tarde y no dejaban que saliera sin nadie que me acompañara
    (it was already very late and they wouldn't let me go out without someone to accompany me)

  • lo sentimos mucho, pero murió antes de que llegaras
    (we are very sorry, but he died before you arrived)

  • te visitaría si quisiera, pero la verdad, ya no me siento a gusto contigo
    (I would visit you if I wanted to, but the truth is I don't feel comfortable with you anymore)

  • tras mi accidente mis padres han decidido que no entrenara solo
    (after my accident my parents have decided that I did not train alone)

  • no me extraña que empeorara, le habían indicado que no fumara más y no hizo caso
    (it does not surprise me that he got worse, they had told him not to smoke anymore and he didn't obeyed)

  • dime, ¿no habría sido mejor que ayudara en lugar de irse de juerga?
    (tell me, wouldn't it have been better if he had helped instead of going on a spree?)


Pluscuamperfecto del subjuntivo

  • ojalá no te hubieras retirado de la competencia, no creo que hubieras perdido
    (I wish you hadn't withdrawn from the competition, I don't think you would have lost)

  • ella deseaba que sus hijos hubieran viajado más antes de casarse
    (she wished her children had traveled more before getting married)

  • me sorprendió su visita, no creí que hubiera sabido de mi accidente
    (her visit surprised me, I didn't think she would have known about my accident)

  • lo sabría si me lo hubiera dicho, pero ya sabes que hace tiempo que no me habla
    (I'd know if she'd told me, but you know she hasn't spoken to me in a long time)

  • su respuesta fue irracional, ¡ha actuado como si hubiera matado a no sé quién!
    (his response was irrational, he has behaved as if I had killed I don't know who!)

  • ¿cómo supones tal cosa? ¡no había posibilidad de que hubiera sabido!
    (fhow do you suppose such a thing? there was no chance I would have known!)

  • me culpas sin razón de ser: lo habría ayudado si me lo hubiera pedido
    (you blame me for no reason: I would have helped him if he had asked me)

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Antinomy - Imagination

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_m_
United States of America

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by _m_ »

"¿les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hagan fiestas tan ruidosas?"
vs.
" ¿Les dijeron a sus vecinos que no hicieran fiestas tan ruidosas?"

Many grammar guides only list the 2nd as "correct", but in real life, most Spanish speakers use both, depending on the context.

"Que no hagan" would be used if the speaker/writer of the sentence thinks the prohibition/promise of no noisy parties is still in effect when spoken/written. "Que no hicieran" would be used if the speaker/writer thinks the prohibition/promise is now over (perhaps they've started having noisy parties again, or they've moved away).

In English, think about what happens if your uncle RSVP's a place at your wedding. In the months before your wedding, you generally say "He said he's coming" or "He said he will come". Once it becomes a past action in your mind (which might be sometime before the actual starting time of the ceremony) you switch to saying "He said he would come." ("He said he would come, and there he is!" or "He said he would come, I don't know why he isn't here!")

In English, just like in Spanish, many "guides" claim that only the sentence with "would" is correct, but this ignores the way the language is used. Having the distinction that allows the speaker/writer to easily communicate whether the action is ongoing or in the past is useful.

For a brief discussion of this in Spanish, search for "CASOS NO CANÓNICOS DE LA CONCORDANCIA TEMPORAL" in the following (long) document: http://hispanoteca.eu/Gramáticas/Gramát ... iempos.htm

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gmads
Mexico

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by gmads »

_m_ wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:38 pm

Many grammar guides only list the 2nd as "correct", but in real life, most Spanish speakers use both, depending on the context.

It is always best to start with the most common uses. Yes, that's why I listed what seems to me to be all the possible combinations.

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Antinomy - Imagination

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MicahCS_59
Canada

Re: question about this Duolingo sentence

Post by MicahCS_59 »

Both are correct. I double checked on my Spanish translator, and it actually showed “hicieran” instead of “hagan”. So either way, it should be correct.

¡Gracias Dúo por enseñarme mi idioma favorito!

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