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Final R pronunciation Topic is solved

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FurbyZeKat
Switzerland

Final R pronunciation

Post by FurbyZeKat »

Hello, I'm starting to learn Turkish and so far pronunciation is pretty easy but when Iistening to the spoken Duo exercises I've a doubt with the final R, like in yer, teşekkürler, Nur etc. where I often hear a "sh" at the end, especially with the female voice.

Is it correct? Is it a problem with the robot voice or with my smartphone? Where could I hear proper pronunciation?

Thanks

N French C1 English B2 German B1 Esperanto L Turkish

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Danika_Dakika
United States of America

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by Danika_Dakika »

It is 100% real, and many Turks admit that they do not hear it themselves. It could be described as a bit of extra air across the palate when a phrase ends in "r."

Whenever you are worried about pronunciations -- you can find real native-spoken words at:
Forvo https://forvo.com/languages/tr/
Youglish https://youglish.com/turkish
TDK Sözlük https://sozluk.gov.tr/

Duolingo Mod, TR Image <> EN Image

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FurbyZeKat
Switzerland

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by FurbyZeKat »

Danika_Dakika wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:49 am

It is 100% real, and many Turks admit that they do not hear it themselves. It could be described as a bit of extra air across the palate when a phrase ends in "r."

Whenever you are worried about pronunciations -- you can find real native-spoken words at:
Forvo https://forvo.com/languages/tr/
Youglish https://youglish.com/turkish
TDK Sözlük https://sozluk.gov.tr/

Thank you for the links. I tried one and it is interesting, you can clearly hear that some have this ending hissing and some not. Regional differences?

https://forvo.com/word/teşekkürler/#tr

N French C1 English B2 German B1 Esperanto L Turkish

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Danika_Dakika
United States of America

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by Danika_Dakika »

Hmmm... I hear it in almost every one of them! There's one where the speaker hits the final-R hard, instead of breathing it. And there's one where the speaker seems to have a better quality mic and it steals some of the breath sound. But other than that, they all do it.

Certainly there are regional differences -- but similar to other languages in other countries (I'm not naming names) -- a region can choose a certain path, but that does not make it standard for the language. ;)

Kolay gelsin!
--Danika_Dakika

Duolingo Mod, TR Image <> EN Image

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FurbyZeKat
Switzerland

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by FurbyZeKat »

Thanks to Spotify I can listen to a lot of Turkish music with lyrics.

Right now I can understand nothing but some words and hints on the sentence structure.

Anyway I use them to better my pronunciation on some words, I also look for ending Rs to check them. It appear that in songs there are very few ending Rs, plurals are often followed by other suffixes and "bir' is unusual.

Until now, I've never heard the Duo pronunciation, maybe they remove it during post-production because it's not very sexy.

N French C1 English B2 German B1 Esperanto L Turkish

O.Zoe
Greece

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by O.Zoe »

Here is a song that says "yeni bir bahar" (1:08) and you can hear that breath sound in both "bir" and "bahar".
Yaşlı Amca - Ve Ben

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FurbyZeKat
Switzerland

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by FurbyZeKat »

Yes, you're right, I can here some, but I've found another one with a lot of final Rs and they are all soft.

What does it mean? Regional differences ?

N French C1 English B2 German B1 Esperanto L Turkish

missclimpson
United States of America

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by missclimpson »

My husband comes from Mersin and he never uses the palatalized R. Just from observation, the usage seems most obvious with women, but men do use it too.

MustafaOuz526752

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by MustafaOuz526752 »

Linguistically speaking, r's at the end of sentences are in the process of evolving from the voiced alveolar tap (/ɾ/) to the voiceless alveolar tap (/ɾ̥/). So your brain perceives it as the closest sound it recognizes — a sh (/ʃ/), but they are different sounds (and that is also the reason why the Turks say that we don't hear a sh, because that is not what it is). While this phenomenon is highly common, not everyone pushes air out of their mouth when saying an r, and it is not deemed correct elocution. You will find final r's vibrated in formal speeches.

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FurbyZeKat
Switzerland

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by FurbyZeKat »

MustafaOuz526752 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:50 am

Linguistically speaking, r's at the end of sentences are in the process of evolving from the voiced alveolar tap (/ɾ/) to the voiceless alveolar tap (/ɾ̥/).

Thanks for the clarification. I was missing this information at the beginning, for some reason even the old duolingo tips didn't mention the specific pronunciation of the turkish R.

I think I got it now, at least I now have a much better success with speaking exercices.

N French C1 English B2 German B1 Esperanto L Turkish

IngoSteink
Germany

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by IngoSteink »

Thanks for the discussion! I personally noticed that some Duolingo sound clips pronounce a very hearable R at the end of Turkish words, some don't, and most singers (on Kralpop and in recent Turkish Rock and Pop hits playlists on Spotify) and people on the streets of Berlin don't, or at least not in such a way. Further research made me discover this elaborate Quora post stating, like @MustafaOuz526752 wrote, that there is a tendency to omit the final R, and that they perceived it as a typical "state TV news announcer in the 1990s" style that would get you noticed in a negative way if you spoke like that in İstanbul today.

That sounds like good news for me, because, as a German, I have always struggled to pronounce the final R in that (in)correct "Turkish" way.

Maybe someone who lives in İstanbul and who is no native Turkish speaker can confirm or disagree?

MustafaOuz526752

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by MustafaOuz526752 »

IngoSteink wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:11 pm

like @MustafaOuz526752 wrote, that there is a tendency to omit the final R, and that they perceived it as a typical "state TV news announcer in the 1990s" style that would get you noticed in a negative way if you spoke like that in İstanbul today.

That sounds like good news for me, because, as a German, I have always struggled to pronounce the final R in that (in)correct "Turkish" way.

Maybe someone who lives in İstanbul and who is no native Turkish speaker can confirm or disagree?

I can confirm for the most part. The omission of word-final r's is a different phenomenon that only applies to the present tense suffix -yor and bir — where the r is completely lost, rather than becoming another sound. However, it is informal language and you should pronounce the r in formal contexts, such as when ordering food at a restaurant or talking to the police.

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Corinnebelle

Re: Final R pronunciation

Post by Corinnebelle »

@MustafaOuz526752 Finals r's disappear in some words in some dialects of English.

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